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Switch to Forum Live View Why Theists Won't Think
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 9:52PM #31
steven_guy
Posts: 11,751


Rack off


www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITqh-Tzs3QM


Apr 28, 2012 -- 8:28PM, teilhard wrote:


Why do these small Matters bother you so much ... ??? Get Over Them ...


Apr 28, 2012 -- 8:01PM, steven_guy wrote:


Why do the words "faith communities" need f*cking capital letters? It isn't a proper noun. If you want to bang on endlessly about friggin' "faith communities", why not take it to the appropriate forum?


Apr 28, 2012 -- 7:48PM, Jcarlinbn wrote:


Moved post 







teilhard



Posts: 35,079







Yes ... Reforms and Developments throughout History are Part-Parcel of the THINKING that is definitely engaged by various Faith Communities ...














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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 9:58PM #32
teilhard
Posts: 51,394

Rock On ... !!!


Apr 28, 2012 -- 9:52PM, steven_guy wrote:



Rack off


www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITqh-Tzs3QM


Apr 28, 2012 -- 8:28PM, teilhard wrote:


Why do these small Matters bother you so much ... ??? Get Over Them ...


Apr 28, 2012 -- 8:01PM, steven_guy wrote:


Why do the words "faith communities" need f*cking capital letters? It isn't a proper noun. If you want to bang on endlessly about friggin' "faith communities", why not take it to the appropriate forum?


Apr 28, 2012 -- 7:48PM, Jcarlinbn wrote:


Moved post 







teilhard



Posts: 35,079







Yes ... Reforms and Developments throughout History are Part-Parcel of the THINKING that is definitely engaged by various Faith Communities ...


















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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 1:28AM #33
chevy956
Posts: 1,960

Apr 28, 2012 -- 9:52PM, steven_guy wrote:


Rack off


www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITqh-Tzs3QM


Apr 28, 2012 -- 8:28PM, teilhard wrote:


Why do these small Matters bother you so much ... ??? Get Over Them ...


Apr 28, 2012 -- 8:01PM, steven_guy wrote:


Why do the words "faith communities" need f*cking capital letters? It isn't a proper noun. If you want to bang on endlessly about friggin' "faith communities", why not take it to the appropriate forum?


Apr 28, 2012 -- 7:48PM, Jcarlinbn wrote:


Moved post 







teilhard



Posts: 35,079







Yes ... Reforms and Developments throughout History are Part-Parcel of the THINKING that is definitely engaged by various Faith Communities ...















Ahhhhh- too damn funny.....

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 1:37AM #34
ctcss
Posts: 684

Apr 28, 2012 -- 4:24PM, redshifted wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 3:36PM, ctcss wrote:


I cannot imagine changing my current viewpoints on my belief simply because I did a few math and logic puzzles. My belief is based on a logical progression based on certain premises regarding God and God's creation and as long as those premises are held, the rest follows rather nicely as far as I can tell. In essence, I am being analytical when thinking about and exercising my faith. (But then, my faith is not based on matter or materialism, so material premises don't enter into it at all, so I guess that is probably a rather major difference between me and the test participants.)




Well, the important part is to start out with premises that can be shown to be true in reality; or maybe I should say most likely true. Otherwise, your conclusion won't represent anything true about reality.




The thing is, none of us is capable of proving what is "true" in reality. We make our best guesses based on our experience and understanding of what seems to be real and head in the direction that we think is most likely to be true. You have chosen your direction and I have chosen mine. And the reason we have each continued on our present courses is because so far we have each found useful results in doing so.  And we will likely continue on our courses until such time as our efforts to determine what is "true" reach a dead end and we are forced to retrace our steps and seek a better path.


Best of luck on your journey.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 2:34AM #35
ctcss
Posts: 684

Apr 28, 2012 -- 7:39PM, JCarlin wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 3:36PM, ctcss wrote:

I cannot imagine changing my current viewpoints on my belief simply because I did a few math and logic puzzles. My belief is based on a logical progression based on certain premises regarding God and God's creation and as long as those premises are held, the rest follows rather nicely as far as I can tell. In essence, I am being analytical when thinking about and exercising my faith. (But then, my faith is not based on matter or materialism, so material premises don't enter into it at all, so I guess that is probably a rather major difference between me and the test participants.)


In my experience, limited to be sure I tend to associate with people that think, those who think about their religion and remain in it tend to be regarded as heritics by the heirarchy. See The nuns feel the ruler by Tony Auth. They like you have found a non-material reality related to their milk religion that they base their beliefs on but thinking about the dogma tends to distance them from the mainstream.  



Interestingly, I don't come from a church with a hierarchy, so I don't have to actually worry so much about those kinds of things. And even more interestingly, my thoughts on my religion actually correspond to what the religion actually teaches, so there is no problem in that regard either. (I find it to be logical, so I don't actually have any problems agreeing with what it says.) But yes, I did (and do) have to think about what my religion teaches because that is the only way to stay with it as an adult and make it one's own. Deciding to put one's faith into action is a non-trivial effort from what I have found, and really can't be done effectively without understanding the basics of the theology. Blind faith or blind action just won't cut it IMO. From my religious perspective, the problems one encounters in life demand thoughtful responses and a reasoned faith in order to make progress in overcoming them. And if such an approach seems to differ from what is considered to be mainstream religious thought, well, so be it. (I certainly hope it doesn't, however, because I would prefer and hope that all religious approaches be thoughtful ones.)

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 10:07AM #36
teilhard
Posts: 51,394

The very careful Thinking done by serious People of Faith IS almost always inherently "conservative" not least because Religious Faith Communities inherently involve and protect and transmit a "Tradition" ...


Such Communities indeed AREN'T inclined to start-all-over "from Scratch" but carry The Tradition FORWARD ...


Devotees of an "Atheist" Tradition obviously will likely be rather impatient with such Developments ...


Apr 29, 2012 -- 2:34AM, ctcss wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 7:39PM, JCarlin wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 3:36PM, ctcss wrote:

I cannot imagine changing my current viewpoints on my belief simply because I did a few math and logic puzzles. My belief is based on a logical progression based on certain premises regarding God and God's creation and as long as those premises are held, the rest follows rather nicely as far as I can tell. In essence, I am being analytical when thinking about and exercising my faith. (But then, my faith is not based on matter or materialism, so material premises don't enter into it at all, so I guess that is probably a rather major difference between me and the test participants.)


In my experience, limited to be sure I tend to associate with people that think, those who think about their religion and remain in it tend to be regarded as heritics by the heirarchy. See The nuns feel the ruler by Tony Auth. They like you have found a non-material reality related to their milk religion that they base their beliefs on but thinking about the dogma tends to distance them from the mainstream.  



Interestingly, I don't come from a church with a hierarchy, so I don't have to actually worry so much about those kinds of things. And even more interestingly, my thoughts on my religion actually correspond to what the religion actually teaches, so there is no problem in that regard either. (I find it to be logical, so I don't actually have any problems agreeing with what it says.) But yes, I did (and do) have to think about what my religion teaches because that is the only way to stay with it as an adult and make it one's own. Deciding to put one's faith into action is a non-trivial effort from what I have found, and really can't be done effectively without understanding the basics of the theology. Blind faith or blind action just won't cut it IMO. From my religious perspective, the problems one encounters in life demand thoughtful responses and a reasoned faith in order to make progress in overcoming them. And if such an approach seems to differ from what is considered to be mainstream religious thought, well, so be it. (I certainly hope it doesn't, however, because I would prefer and hope that all religious approaches be thoughtful ones.)





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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 10:51AM #37
redshifted
Posts: 2,283

Apr 29, 2012 -- 1:37AM, ctcss wrote:


The thing is, none of us is capable of proving what is "true" in reality. We make our best guesses based on our experience and understanding of what seems to be real and head in the direction that we think is most likely to be true. You have chosen your direction and I have chosen mine. And the reason we have each continued on our present courses is because so far we have each found useful results in doing so.  And we will likely continue on our courses until such time as our efforts to determine what is "true" reach a dead end and we are forced to retrace our steps and seek a better path.



When it comes to the path of truth, it's not "whatever works for you."  There are objectively reliable and unreliable ways of getting at what's most likely true. If you don't subject your experience and ideas to reliable ways, the outcome is probably not going to be truth. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 10:55AM #38
teilhard
Posts: 51,394

However ... As discussed already ENDLESSLY in this Forum, People of Faith DO think (often DEEPLY) about their own and their Community Experience(s) ...


Apr 30, 2012 -- 10:51AM, redshifted wrote:


Apr 29, 2012 -- 1:37AM, ctcss wrote:


The thing is, none of us is capable of proving what is "true" in reality. We make our best guesses based on our experience and understanding of what seems to be real and head in the direction that we think is most likely to be true. You have chosen your direction and I have chosen mine. And the reason we have each continued on our present courses is because so far we have each found useful results in doing so.  And we will likely continue on our courses until such time as our efforts to determine what is "true" reach a dead end and we are forced to retrace our steps and seek a better path.



When it comes to the path of truth, it's not "whatever works for you."  There are objectively reliable and unreliable ways of getting at what's most likely true. If you don't subject your experience and ideas to reliable ways, the outcome is probably not going to be truth. 





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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 11:34AM #39
JCarlin
Posts: 6,783

Apr 30, 2012 -- 10:55AM, teilhard wrote:

However ... As discussed already ENDLESSLY in this Forum, People of Faith DO think (often DEEPLY) about their own and their Community Experience(s) ...


So far in thousands of posts in this forum with a few valuable and appreciated exceptions all we have seen from "People of Faith" is witnessing to dogma, content free homilies, and anti-atheist rants.  Apparantly "People of Faith" who "DO think (often DEEPLY) about their own and their Community Experience(s)" don't wish to expose those thoughts to the scoffing and mocking of those whose deep thinking comes to different conclusions. 


I certainly appreciate those few exceptions who do contribute faith based input to these conversations, and make the whole exercise worth while.  This is not to say that debunking BS is not useful, but it does not provide much of an opprtunity to learn and grow. 

J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 12:34PM #40
teilhard
Posts: 51,394

I agree that Thinking Persons -- often based upon their own Experiences and inherited Traditions -- DO "come to different Conclusions" on a HOST of Matters ...


We AGREE that "Thinking" does NOT = "Guaranteed Uniformity of Conclusions" ...


I, for one, am GLAD that this is the Case, as I have NO Desire to "live and move and have my being" as a Clone-of-Everybody-Else ... OR to live in Submission to some "Kind" of Thought-Control-Censor-Minders ...


Apr 30, 2012 -- 11:34AM, JCarlin wrote:


Apr 30, 2012 -- 10:55AM, teilhard wrote:

However ... As discussed already ENDLESSLY in this Forum, People of Faith DO think (often DEEPLY) about their own and their Community Experience(s) ...


So far in thousands of posts in this forum with a few valuable and appreciated exceptions all we have seen from "People of Faith" is witnessing to dogma, content free homilies, and anti-atheist rants.  Apparantly "People of Faith" who "DO think (often DEEPLY) about their own and their Community Experience(s)" don't wish to expose those thoughts to the scoffing and mocking of those whose deep thinking comes to different conclusions. 


I certainly appreciate those few exceptions who do contribute faith based input to these conversations, and make the whole exercise worth while.  This is not to say that debunking BS is not useful, but it does not provide much of an opprtunity to learn and grow. 





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