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Switch to Forum Live View Why Theists Won't Think
2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 10:43AM #181
Ken
Posts: 33,860

May 8, 2012 -- 10:37AM, Fodaoson wrote:


Atheism is more than an Idea or the lack of belief in a deity.   For an individual  it is “ without god”  but there are atheist associations , organization that promote atheism and atheist  support  services organizations.  Some have  been granted Tax exempt status by the IRS.   I have cited four sites below. There are many more on line:


www.atheistalliance.org/


www.americanhumanist.org/


www.humanism.org.uk/home


militaryatheists.org/



What are they to me? I don't belong to any of them. Most atheists don't.


The humanist organizations promote a positive agenda in addition to being atheist. An atheist might very well dissent from that positive agenda.


The Atheist Alliance is mainly interested in combatting the oppressive hold of religion on society. Apart from their advocacy of democracy, theirs is a negative agenda - they want to get rid of something. The Military Atheists are dedicated entirely to combatting the oppressive hold of Christianity on the American military. Again, that's a negative agenda.

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 10:52AM #182
teilhard
Posts: 48,300

Yes ... It seems that there are at least a FEW "Sects" within "Atheism" ... As so often noted, e.g., The (so-called) "New Atheists" are a markedly different ("Evangelistic" !!!) Bunch than simply Folks who don't go to Church anywhere ...


May 8, 2012 -- 10:37AM, Fodaoson wrote:


Atheism is more than an Idea or the lack of belief in a deity.   For an individual  it is “ without god”  but there are atheist associations , organization that promote atheism and atheist  support  services organizations.  Some have  been granted Tax exempt status by the IRS.   I have cited four sites below. There are many more on line:


www.atheistalliance.org/


www.americanhumanist.org/


www.humanism.org.uk/home


militaryatheists.org/





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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 10:53AM #183
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,767

May 7, 2012 -- 6:51PM, Thetwofish wrote:


myt: I was talking in terms of ideas that might bolster atheism.


Like, what, for instance?  I wasn't aware, at least as far as I've seen here, that atheists want to or feel the need to offer up ideas to "bolster" atheism.


I have come to the dinstinct conclusion that atheists don't give a care in the world whether any theists want to "join their side", therefore, why would they even offer ideas that would "bolster" their non-belief?


If I'm off the mark, please atheists, correct me.


Peace


<'{{><




I never said anything about trying to recruit people. I'm sure, most atheists care about as much about that, as I do about converting atheists. Everybody has to make up their own mind.


I'm talking about the general conclusions that can be drawn from the basic idea/ideas of atheism.


For example, that our sapience is just basically an accident of nature. That sort of thing. 


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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 10:57AM #184
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,767

May 8, 2012 -- 10:52AM, teilhard wrote:


Yes ... It seems that there are at least a FEW "Sects" within "Atheism" ... As so often noted, e.g., The (so-called) "New Atheists" are a markedly different ("Evangelistic" !!!) Bunch than simply Folks who don't go to Church anywhere ...


May 8, 2012 -- 10:37AM, Fodaoson wrote:


Atheism is more than an Idea or the lack of belief in a deity.   For an individual  it is “ without god”  but there are atheist associations , organization that promote atheism and atheist  support  services organizations.  Some have  been granted Tax exempt status by the IRS.   I have cited four sites below. There are many more on line:


www.atheistalliance.org/


www.americanhumanist.org/


www.humanism.org.uk/home


militaryatheists.org/








There are atheists "on a mission" so to speak. And I find them no less annoying than religious preachers. 


That said, that is an individual choice on their part. And they should be free to make and follow that choice, and spread their word whenever and however they please. However, they are not obligated to do so, simply by virtue of being atheists. 


The atheists I've known personally, mostly just wanted to be left the heck alone. 

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 11:03AM #185
Thetwofish
Posts: 547

May 8, 2012 -- 10:53AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


May 7, 2012 -- 6:51PM, Thetwofish wrote:


myt: I was talking in terms of ideas that might bolster atheism.


Like, what, for instance?  I wasn't aware, at least as far as I've seen here, that atheists want to or feel the need to offer up ideas to "bolster" atheism.


I have come to the dinstinct conclusion that atheists don't give a care in the world whether any theists want to "join their side", therefore, why would they even offer ideas that would "bolster" their non-belief?


If I'm off the mark, please atheists, correct me.


Peace


<'{{><




I never said anything about trying to recruit people. I'm sure, most atheists care about as much about that, as I do about converting atheists. Everybody has to make up their own mind.


I'm talking about the general conclusions that can be drawn from the basic idea/ideas of atheism.


For example, that our sapience is just basically an accident of nature. That sort of thing. 





They why would you expect atheists to provide reasoning to "bolster" atheism?  The only reason to "bolster" something is if you are trying to sway someone to your side of an argument.


The atheists need not "bolster" atheism.  They're not selling anything.  They simply watch and rebut on the "bolstering" that theists do.


And so what if they believe our "sapience" is just basically an accident of nature?  It's not anyone elses business how they feel about it, so why are YOU so concerned with it?


From watching these debates, all I see is, YOU getting all huffy because they don't just bow down to YOUR intellectual genius in concluding that there IS a God and I see you try a lot of bolstering.


I see them go "Eh...I've heard it all before and I am unimpressed."


Where's the beef MT?


Peace


<'{{><

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 11:16AM #186
F1fan
Posts: 10,697

May 8, 2012 -- 10:16AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

And you have to demonstrate that what you claim is knowledge of an actual god, not your imagination.  We have no obligation to accept the many various claims of gods existing when we have better explanations for why humans believe in these irrational ideas.


I don't fundamentally disagree with anything you've said here. Except I'm baffled about where the last part is coming from.



It's coming from reason, and that based on what we observe true about our environment and behavior.  You seem to want your idea of god to be accepted by us.  You claim it is real, and treat your belief as if it is knowledge and openly apparent.  However, your belief is limited to you (which you don't seem to understand, a narcissistic element of modern Christianity) and your belief is subject to error, and therefore doubt.  We are not obligated to accept your assumptions or beliefs, no matter what you think.  As I noted on another thread, your inability to discern knowledge from belief is as serious liability for you to reason competently.  Reasoning is a skill, and you need to learn how to limit your beliefs and interpretations to limit bias and prejudice.  But, the danger of theism is the emotional motives to deceive the self about religious concepts, as we see unfold in your posts.


Regardless of whether you think God is pure imagination, a literal big angry man in the sky or something else, you have to have knowledge of a thing/concept/idea before you can have a response to it.



Yes.  And we non-theists ask plently of questions testing what you theists claim is knowledge.  We base our response to theist claims with what you mortals say.  We don't have actual gods making claims of their own existence, we have fallible, mortal believers, like yourself, making claims.  We owe you mortals no credence or deference for your claims about a god.  You are an ordinary mortals with rather bland claims.  We respond to you and your claims about gods, not actual gods.  If you are vague, than all we can do is respond to your lack of detail.  If you are specific then we can address how the details tend to not correspond to reality.  We see sneaky and deceptive tactics by some theists who assert "I have knowledge of god, and you can't access it".  Nice bluff.  Nice lie.  Plus that sort of petty, childish game doesn't seem indicative of a mortal who has actually seen the light.


Some theists seem to think that since the content of their belief and claims is an ULTIMATE POWER that it carries some authority and power.  It doesn't.  The content of the concept itself means nothing at all, even if the content is about a god.  All that matters is whether the concept presented can be backed up with evidence, and valid reasoning.  Period!!!  If you have no valid and credible evidence, then you have no chance of a valid argument.  You have unverifiable belief, that's all.

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 11:29AM #187
Ken
Posts: 33,860

May 8, 2012 -- 10:53AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

I'm talking about the general conclusions that can be drawn from the basic idea/ideas of atheism.


For example, that our sapience is just basically an accident of nature. That sort of thing.



The brain is an organ no less than limbs and eyes. Why shouldn't it evolve to become adept at thinking just as the cheetah's limbs became adept at running and the eagle's eyes became adept at seeing? You never make a reasoned case for your position; you just say "It's obvious."

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 11:36AM #188
F1fan
Posts: 10,697

May 8, 2012 -- 10:57AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

There are atheists "on a mission" so to speak. And I find them no less annoying than religious preachers.



Why?  there are atheists on a mission because there is an increasing influence of fundamentalism in US society and politics, and it is an influence with a seriously negative impact.  Of course there will be a fight back against a social movement that is largely irrational, yet claims to be knowledge.  YOU are one of the examples of this problem.  That you cannot and will not discern your beliefs from knwoeldge is why there is a mission for atheists, and even many theists.


That said, that is an individual choice on their part. And they should be free to make and follow that choice, and spread their word whenever and however they please. However, they are not obligated to do so, simply by virtue of being atheists.



There are theists on the side of reason, too.  They may be theists, but are able to separate what they can know about nature and reality from their religious practice.  They suffer little to no cognitive dissonance, nor outright denial.


It isn't an issue of being atheist, or a non-believer.  It is a matter of being rational as a modern society, and being wary of a growing influence of extremey irrational people.


The atheists I've known personally, mostly just wanted to be left the heck alone. 




Notice we don't see Hindus here.  Atheists live with very good harmony with Eastern religions.  It is fundamentalist Christianity and some forms of Islam that pose a problem to modern society.  The extreme distrust and prejudice extended to atheists by Christians and Muslims is due to ignorance, and the rampant fear in these religions.  Naturally with such fear and prejudice we non-believers have to defend reason and freedom.  If fundamentalists would accept non-believers with respect and tolerance, and respect science without forcing creationist garbage onto society, then there would be more harmony.  As it is the socially destructive movement by fundamentalists have to be faced by some group, and it happens to be atheists who have been labelled as the primary force.  This is probably true, but it also serves fundamentalists since they can use their prejudice against non-believers as a reason to deny the points made.  That is unfair, and just another example of the moral fraud and failure of Christianity.

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 3:34PM #189
wohali
Posts: 10,227

Mytmouse:


"I'm talking about the general conclusions that can be drawn from the basic idea/ideas of atheism."


The only idea of atheism is: There are no gods.

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 4:37PM #190
steven_guy
Posts: 11,574

May 8, 2012 -- 10:13AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


And you know less about me and my life. So what?



I have no interest in your religion and I don't care about your life not will I try to tell you what you are. To me you're just another theist who seems to have come here to give us a piece of your mind and tell us what we are.


May 8, 2012 -- 10:13AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Atheism will affect how one views the world



You don't listen do you? Several of us have told you that we don't have world views. Atheists can be to the political hard right or the political left. Atheists can be conservative or liberal and anything in between. Atheists may have an interest in science and/or reason or they may have no interest whatsoever. Atheists may be humanists or they may not care less. The problem is that you don't really understand atheism. You and Fodaoson seem to be hell-bent on bostering your beliefs that atheism is some sort of weird non-religion religion - a belief in fact - when it is clearly the opposite.


May 8, 2012 -- 10:13AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

and/or frame of reality -- just as theism will.



I get up each morning, shit/shower/shave/shampoo and go about my daily business. I am interested in local and national politics and since religion doesn't have a significant influence on politics here (our PM is an atheist) I hardly ever need think about religion or atheism at all.  Atheism has influenced virtually NOTHING in my life. I doubt that my life would have been much different if I was a theist.


May 8, 2012 -- 10:13AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Therefore, one's opinions also will inevitably be affected. 



Bullshit. If atheism had an influence on one's opinions then how come there are atheists who are Ayn Rand followers and there are atheists who admire Karl Marx?



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