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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 10:13AM #1
SecondSonOfDavid
Posts: 3,344
Every now and then, someone brings up heaven and/or hell.  The conversation usually quickly devolves, I think because people all have some strong ideas about H & H, but those ideas run a wide spectrum in at at least five dimensions about the character and qualities of those places.  So, this being Friday and folks having been WAAAAAAY too tense on topics debated recently, I'd like to suggest a happier topic with less stressful atributes.

For the purpose of this thread, I suggest we accept the following assumptions:

1. There is an afterlife following the life we know
2. For this discussion, you go to the "good" place.
3. This place is eternal, but in many ways can be experienced and described in terms similar to our earth.
4. Commonly accepted virtues of Charity, Compassion, Generosity, Justice, Freedom, Peace and Honor are pronounced here and universally accepted.

Given those assumptions, what would heaven (for a label) be like?  What would our bodies be like?   How will we interact with other people, including those who were opponents and enemies in the moral world?  What do you do in heaven?  

Please respect the opinions and cultures of others who present their perspective, and remember that since none of us are there yet, no one can prove their opinion is "right" and the others "wrong".  

Thanks in Advance.











































ps - yes I have my own ideas but don't want to post them first.  It would be like talking to myself, to ask a question then answer it in a banal soliloquoy. 
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 11:00AM #2
Kwinters
Posts: 18,203

I think that my ideal heaven would be personal.  I don't think there is a one-size fits all heaven.


The problem is that the only joys I know are the joys I have experienced in life, and what I find enjoyable others do not.  Sometimes I find things joyful, and other times they cause suffering.  Generally I love learning, but sometimes I get tired of it, for instance.


I think the perfect heaven is one where people can experience what they want to experience.  Perhaps they want to work as angels for a while, so they can take on some human case work.  Maybe they can spend sometime helping people transition from life to death.


Othertimes is could be having a jam session with their favorite artist.  Or touring the universe with 'eyes' that could perceive things the way that artists translate the information from Hubble for those amazing images.


In an ideal heaven we would only interact with people we enjoy, never people who piss us off - unless we so chose.


So that is heaven to me.  But I would have to guess that even with that idealized experience, eventually I'd get fed up of everything and would wish myself into non-existence.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 11:25AM #3
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:00AM, Kwinters wrote:


I think that my ideal heaven would be personal.  I don't think there is a one-size fits all heaven.


The problem is that the only joys I know are the joys I have experienced in life, and what I find enjoyable others do not.  Sometimes I find things joyful, and other times they cause suffering.  Generally I love learning, but sometimes I get tired of it, for instance.


I think the perfect heaven is one where people can experience what they want to experience.  Perhaps they want to work as angels for a while, so they can take on some human case work.  Maybe they can spend sometime helping people transition from life to death.


Othertimes is could be having a jam session with their favorite artist.  Or touring the universe with 'eyes' that could perceive things the way that artists translate the information from Hubble for those amazing images.


In an ideal heaven we would only interact with people we enjoy, never people who piss us off - unless we so chose.


So that is heaven to me.  But I would have to guess that even with that idealized experience, eventually I'd get fed up of everything and would wish myself into non-existence.




Your description sounds nice, but it contradicts the concept.  You said it yourself:  "Perfect".  Perfection REQUIRES a static state, or it cannot remain perfect.  


The Talking Heads put it best:  "Heaven is a place, a place where nothing, nothing ever happens..."


Their version works with the concept.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 11:34AM #4
Ruhi19
Posts: 529

Apr 27, 2012 -- 10:13AM, SecondSonOfDavid wrote:

For the purpose of this thread, I suggest we accept the following assumptions:

1. There is an afterlife following the life we know
2. For this discussion, you go to the "good" place.
3. This place is eternal, but in many ways can be experienced and described in terms similar to our earth.
4. Commonly accepted virtues of Charity, Compassion, Generosity, Justice, Freedom, Peace and Honor are pronounced here and universally accepted.

Given those assumptions, what would heaven (for a label) be like?  



Heaven is not a place.  It is nearness to God.  Thus, "heaven" can be experienced both here and in the next world.


What would our bodies be like?  



Just as we prepare our bodies in the matrix of the womb for life in this world (our arms, hands, eyes, ears, etc., which are useless in the world of the matrix), so too do we develop what we need for the next world:  the virtues and attributes of God which we need in the next world. Since our body is material, it does not accompany us to the next world.


 How will we interact with other people, including those who were opponents and enemies in the moral world?

We associate with other people that we love and who also love God.  Can we move through different "levels" or "circles" where others may or may not be as close to God as our level? That is still uncertain in my mind.  Perhaps we can move further away to interact with others but not closer? 










































ps - yes I have my own ideas but don't want to post them first.  It would be like talking to myself, to ask a question then answer it in a banal soliloquoy. 




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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 11:38AM #5
lope
Posts: 9,691

Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:25AM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:00AM, Kwinters wrote:


I think that my ideal heaven would be personal.  I don't think there is a one-size fits all heaven.


The problem is that the only joys I know are the joys I have experienced in life, and what I find enjoyable others do not.  Sometimes I find things joyful, and other times they cause suffering.  Generally I love learning, but sometimes I get tired of it, for instance.


I think the perfect heaven is one where people can experience what they want to experience.  Perhaps they want to work as angels for a while, so they can take on some human case work.  Maybe they can spend sometime helping people transition from life to death.


Othertimes is could be having a jam session with their favorite artist.  Or touring the universe with 'eyes' that could perceive things the way that artists translate the information from Hubble for those amazing images.


In an ideal heaven we would only interact with people we enjoy, never people who piss us off - unless we so chose.


So that is heaven to me.  But I would have to guess that even with that idealized experience, eventually I'd get fed up of everything and would wish myself into non-existence.




Your description sounds nice, but it contradicts the concept.  You said it yourself:  "Perfect".  Perfection REQUIRES a static state, or it cannot remain perfect.  


The Talking Heads put it best:  "Heaven is a place, a place where nothing, nothing ever happens..."


Their version works with the concept.




I don't think it is a place.  I think it is a state of existence we cannot imagine.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 11:39AM #6
lope
Posts: 9,691

Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:00AM, Kwinters wrote:


I think that my ideal heaven would be personal.  I don't think there is a one-size fits all heaven.


The problem is that the only joys I know are the joys I have experienced in life, and what I find enjoyable others do not.  Sometimes I find things joyful, and other times they cause suffering.  Generally I love learning, but sometimes I get tired of it, for instance.


I think the perfect heaven is one where people can experience what they want to experience.  Perhaps they want to work as angels for a while, so they can take on some human case work.  Maybe they can spend sometime helping people transition from life to death.


Othertimes is could be having a jam session with their favorite artist.  Or touring the universe with 'eyes' that could perceive things the way that artists translate the information from Hubble for those amazing images.


In an ideal heaven we would only interact with people we enjoy, never people who piss us off - unless we so chose.


So that is heaven to me.  But I would have to guess that even with that idealized experience, eventually I'd get fed up of everything and would wish myself into non-existence.




I don't think you and I are capable of creating or even imagining a state of existence in which we would be eternally content and happy.  I think God may be capable of doing that.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 12:13PM #7
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

Based on the evidence, I don't follow the reasoning that we are trying to seek a static state called "eternal happiness".



Did you ever consider that the assumption has no basis and therefore is flawed?



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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 12:16PM #8
SecondSonOfDavid
Posts: 3,344

Apr 27, 2012 -- 12:13PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


Based on the evidence, I don't follow the reasoning that we are trying to seek a static state called "eternal happiness".



Did you ever consider that the assumption has no basis and therefore is flawed?





No one compelled you to post here, Bob.  You sound like a man who denounced rides at the amusement park because they end where they start.


You miss the whole purpose. 

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 12:29PM #9
Blü
Posts: 23,980

SecondSon


It'd be pointless and very boring.  Utterly pointless and hugely boring.  Pointless past the point of meaningless and horribly boring forever and ever amen.


Though if they had fair, free and regular elections, that might break some of the monotony.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 12:37PM #10
SecondSonOfDavid
Posts: 3,344

Apr 27, 2012 -- 12:29PM, Blü wrote:


SecondSon


It'd be pointless and very boring.  Utterly pointless and hugely boring.  Pointless past the point of meaningless and horribly boring forever and ever amen.


Though if they had fair, free and regular elections, that might break some of the monotony.





So Blu, you cannot imagine any kind of existence after this life where you could find meaning, purpose, and joy?


As for boredom, it is what you make of it.  One of the things I hated most about surgery was having to lie around waiting to be able to move on my own.  Aside from the indignity of having to have help for literally everything, I found recuperation to be more maddening than any productive work. For example, one of the things I enjoyed after surgery that I generally hated before, was weeding my yard.  Doing paperwork and research was an absolute joy compared to waiting for someone to bring me a bed pan.  


The context sets the mood for me.  A few minutes in a waiting room is monotony, but hours just sitting with my family is fulfilling.  A thousand years could be torment or complete joy, depending on the details.

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier.
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