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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 3:00PM #21
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,653

Apr 27, 2012 -- 12:41PM, Kwinters wrote:



As I said, even unending bliss would eventually become tedious and boring.




Very true. A heavenly place for some people, might actually be something many would consider hell. Some people might find being at war ideal for themselves. Others might find travel ideal for themselves. Heavenly would indeed be different for everyone, and endlessly singing the praises of the Abrahamic deity would like not be for most.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 3:33PM #22
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

"Heaven is not a place.  It is nearness to God.  Thus, "heaven" can be experienced both here and in the next world."


Speak for yourself.


IF biblegod exists and IF it is an described by believers and IF heaven is "nearness" to it - I want NO part of it.


STFU god and go a-a-away! Leave me in peace with my OWN thought flaws and foibles.

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 4:12PM #23
lope
Posts: 9,658

Apr 27, 2012 -- 2:22PM, SecondSonOfDavid wrote:


To those who deny a material Heaven, what about children and babies who die before reaching adulthood?  What about people who give up comforts to protect and care for loved ones?  





What is the connection between your question and heaven being a physical place?  You don't believe God is physical person do you?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 4:15PM #24
lope
Posts: 9,658

Apr 27, 2012 -- 12:41PM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:39AM, lope wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:00AM, Kwinters wrote:


I think that my ideal heaven would be personal.  I don't think there is a one-size fits all heaven.


The problem is that the only joys I know are the joys I have experienced in life, and what I find enjoyable others do not.  Sometimes I find things joyful, and other times they cause suffering.  Generally I love learning, but sometimes I get tired of it, for instance.


I think the perfect heaven is one where people can experience what they want to experience.  Perhaps they want to work as angels for a while, so they can take on some human case work.  Maybe they can spend sometime helping people transition from life to death.


Othertimes is could be having a jam session with their favorite artist.  Or touring the universe with 'eyes' that could perceive things the way that artists translate the information from Hubble for those amazing images.


In an ideal heaven we would only interact with people we enjoy, never people who piss us off - unless we so chose.


So that is heaven to me.  But I would have to guess that even with that idealized experience, eventually I'd get fed up of everything and would wish myself into non-existence.




I don't think you and I are capable of creating or even imagining a state of existence in which we would be eternally content and happy.  I think God may be capable of doing that.




As I said, even unending bliss would eventually become tedious and boring.





You cannot know that.  Nothing in this life would enable you to know that or even reasonably conclude it.  You have not even come close to experiencing unending bliss in this life.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 4:30PM #25
JimRigas
Posts: 2,950

What is the greatest bliss in this universe?  My answer: Coming as close as possible to the one you love.  Trying to become one with him; seeing through his eyes, feeling through his senses.   Unfortunately the body gets in the way.   But in the next world, if there is one, we will not have a body to interfere.  We will be able to join completely with those whom we love.  And as we mature we will be able to love more and more "souls" and thus join with them.  Until finally we all become one, including god.  And then, to protect us from boredom, we may tell ourself (sic): Why don't we create another universe and see if we can do it better?       


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 4:56PM #26
costrel
Posts: 6,216

Apr 27, 2012 -- 10:13AM, SecondSonOfDavid wrote:

1. There is an afterlife following the life we know
2. For this discussion, you go to the "good" place.
3. This place is eternal, but in many ways can be experienced and described in terms similar to our earth.
4. Commonly accepted virtues of Charity, Compassion, Generosity, Justice, Freedom, Peace and Honor are pronounced here and universally accepted.

Given those assumptions, what would heaven (for a label) be like?  What would our bodies be like?   How will we interact with other people, including those who were opponents and enemies in the moral world?  What do you do in heaven?


I was taught that Heaven would be like monastic choir. In Heaven, one would have spiritual souls (since the Resurrection of the flesh has not yet happened). In Heaven, there would be no quarelling, just as there would be no marrying, sexuality, or pair bonding of any kind. People would sing all day, just like the angels do. So if you want a good idea of what Heaven would be like according to how I was taught, please spend a weekend at a Catholic or Orthodox monastery.


Now, when I was a child, I imagined Heaven as a great green forest where people lived much like the early monks who had no homes. People would spend their time wandering through the trees, singing, dancing, and meeting up with family and friends. And most importantly, which goes against the tradition of Heaven being one unending day, I imagined Heaven having the cycles of day and night just as on Earth. I also did not think that Heaven would be the urbanized City of God. So my personal idea of Heaven as a wilderness when I was a child was different from Heaven as a city and Heaven as a monastic cloister and monastic choir, and I suppose my idea of Heaven was a North American wilderness version of a Middle Eastern Eden-like oasis (such as the Heaven-as-Oasis described in the Islamic Koran). Though since the Discalced Carmelites refer to the area behind their monastery walls as a "garden," perhaps my idea of Heaven as a wilderness forest is not so off track. Yes, a pastoral garden is in many ways very different from a primeval wilderness, but they are both natural settings. And when one places monastery walls around them, one does, from a certain point of view, merge the idea of Heaven as a garden with the idea of Heaven as the City of God. So perhaps my childhood idea of Heaven as a wilderness is not so heterodox after all... 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 5:57PM #27
Seefan
Posts: 3,631

Apr 27, 2012 -- 3:33PM, Paladinsf wrote:

  "Heaven is not a place.  It is nearness to God.  Thus, "heaven" can be experienced both here and in the next world."


Speak for yourself.


IF biblegod exists and IF it is an described by believers and IF heaven is "nearness" to it - I want NO part of it.


STFU god and go a-a-away! Leave me in peace with my OWN thought flaws and foibles.




Hmhmhm!  You sound angry???? Don't know about your understanding of "biblegod" but as to God, maybe (?) you have no choice and don't know it ........

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 9:50PM #28
SeraphimR
Posts: 8,249

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE6vN9l3U0E

The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 11:01PM #29
Blü
Posts: 23,928

Seefan


We are told in scripture that heaven can be experienced here and now but in a spiritual sense.


Where are we told this, exactly?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 8:50AM #30
Seefan
Posts: 3,631

Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:01PM, Blü wrote:

Seefan


We are told in scripture that heaven can be experienced here and now but in a spiritual sense.


Where are we told this, exactly? 



In one place Matthew talks about it.  We call it the Lord's prayer - "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" ...  Thy kingdom is a spiritual one therefore heaven is spiritual and can be experienced here and now if we follow what the scriptures teach us ...


And while this is a Christian site to compliment what Matthew said from the Baha'i Writings: "... and to the powers He has released in this age, which will inevitably enable mankind to establish the Kingdom of Heaven on earth foretold by the Prophets of God in past Dispensations."


 

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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