nieciedo: How does one determine if one's motives are "pure?"
How do we ascertain if people lie now?
What is "true happiness?"
Haven't you watched City Slickers?
Anyway, the orphaned prince Vegeta wanted sooooo bad to become a Super Sayian, a legendary awesome version of his species. He loathed the fact that some mook's son Goku managed the enlightened transformation first. So, he tried to ape Goku (LOL) by getting married, having a wife, trying to be all heroic an' stuff. He still couldn't manage it. Only when he accepted WHO he was (a ruthless warrior) did he finally become one. Being pure doesn't mean just pure happiness. You can also be a pure asshole. However, whether you are noble or ignoble, accepting yourself has the same result: no conflict and a transformative power you can't get in any other way, even with drugs.
And that law is survival of the fittest, to the victor go the spoils, and vae victis?
How does Christianity not require survival of the fittest? Only the fittest in God's supposed eyes will be elevated into God's super exclusive club, after all.
Bob_the_Lunatic: One cannot love others, without loving the self.
Like the great RuPaul says: If you can't love yourself, how the HELL are you gonna love somebody else. Can I get an Amen?
By your argument, the former is a more valuable deed. By mine, only the intent matters, NOT the action-thus the latter is more valuable.
And the amusing thing is, Jesus made this point as well.
nieciedo: The Earth and the cosmos is not fallen and defiled, but human society definitely is.
You fall to pick yourself up.
As a nurse, I clean up plenty "brown explosions".
I don't see that, with a little elbow grease, there is any mess that can't be cleaned up. If society is defiled, refile it. :D
Knock and the door shall open. It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
Then you haven't given it much thought. The millionaire may donate $200k to the charity-for a tax break. And the homeless woman may donate her last dollar, out of sincerity.
By your argument, the former is a more valuable deed. By mine, only the intent matters, NOT the action-thus the latter is more valuable.
You are making the same point Jesus did with the widow's mite.
Quite irrelevant, any point one could make can be backed by the bible-precisely why it offers no consistent point on any subject. Nor is mine the view of the christian-as we see so many examples of: It is an action that is addressed, not that which is behind it. As a former Jew, you should know... all those 800 or whatever rules are about behavior are they not? Christianity's watered down version of the rules is no different in nature.
First, you make too many assumptions; nobody mentioned instinct. Second, we exist, there is ample evidence. That said, since there is no evidence of gods, it is MUCH MORE plausible.
Now, I've answered many questions.... yet I notice that mine regarding "different starting points" has yet to be answered, even though it predates several questions I've answered. I guess we have to chalk it up to the rigged game that christianity presents!(?)!
We may exist, but there is zero evidence for the belief that one can overcome anything and there is zero evidence for any sort of immutable internal truth.
Yet, we exist-and that's where that truth is claimed, so again, it requires a higher likelihood that it being in an invisible being that likely (by any account) does NOT exist.
Your contention that cause and effect leads to justice implies that the effect of oppression and exploitation experienced by victims is a just result of their cause at the hands of tyrants. Is that so?
Absolutely. Complete responsibility-which means not only is now the sum of all my past causes, but now is also the start point for infinite futures. All quite impossible if one has caged the mind with the fatalism of christianity.
Christianity has many answers for the "different starting points" question, but they boil down to the "will of God" which is the same as "luck of the draw." The idea that a person is born into a certain condition seems to imply that the person pre-exists his conception/birth and is put in that spot by God for His own purposes. That's a possibility, but I don't know how likely it is.
None of those are answers-they are nothing fancier than deferring it to somewhere we cannot fathom. If you call it an answer, then it is a coward's answer, for it is no answer at all-just synonyms for "I don't know". The last is still more respectable than dishonest answers which say the same...
Rather, I think people are born into the circumstances in which they are because of the people who had sex to produce them. Then we attain awareness of the situation we find ourselves in and we have choices to make: to live for ourselves or for others, to to what is right or what is convenient, to base our actions on love or selfishness. Maybe there are lessons for each person to learn, maybe there are tasks for each person to carry out based on his or her location or talents or skills. I don't know. I only have faith, just as you do in your still vague to me ideology.
Why would it be specific or known to you? It is the opposite of christianity, however-much closer to Judaism in my opinion than christianity is lol. Regardless, why would you indicate to understand all religions and philosophies? Why would you imply you're interested when we know you're not, and THAT is the true nature of it being "vague".
The Earth and the cosmos is not fallen and defiled, but human society definitely is. Every civilization that has heretofore existed up to the present day is founded on exploitation and oppression and the struggle between the haves and the have-nots. My faith tells me that it is God's will that we should strive to better ourselves and live lives of love and self-giving so thereby that the revolution in the microcosm leads to revelotion in the macrocosm: for the mighty to be cast down from their thrones and the lowly exalted, the hungry to eat their fill and the rich to be sent away empty.
If the Earth isn't defiled-then no other world would be necessary, yet the bible is clear that another world exists. Your generalizations are not only false, but simply not convincing. You are clearly not familiar with the history of China for example.
Every now and then, someone brings up heaven and/or hell. The conversation usually quickly devolves, I think because people all have some strong ideas about H & H, but those ideas run a wide spectrum in at at least five dimensions about the character and qualities of those places. So, this being Friday and folks having been WAAAAAAY too tense on topics debated recently, I'd like to suggest a happier topic with less stressful atributes.
For the purpose of this thread, I suggest we accept the following assumptions:
1. There is an afterlife following the life we know 2. For this discussion, you go to the "good" place. 3. This place is eternal, but in many ways can be experienced and described in terms similar to our earth. 4. Commonly accepted virtues of Charity, Compassion, Generosity, Justice, Freedom, Peace and Honor are pronounced here and universally accepted.
Given those assumptions, what would heaven (for a label) be like? What would our bodies be like? How will we interact with other people, including those who were opponents and enemies in the moral world? What do you do in heaven?
Please respect the opinions and cultures of others who present their perspective, and remember that since none of us are there yet, no one can prove their opinion is "right" and the others "wrong".
Thanks in Advance.
ps - yes I have my own ideas but don't want to post them first. It would be like talking to myself, to ask a question then answer it in a banal soliloquoy.
Yet, we exist-and that's where that truth is claimed, so again, it requires a higher likelihood that it being in an invisible being that likely (by any account) does NOT exist.
There is as much proof for the existence of God as there is proof that (a) one can overcome anything and (b) there is some metaphysical immutable truth within us.
Absolutely. Complete responsibility-which means not only is now the sum of all my past causes, but now is also the start point for infinite futures. All quite impossible if one has caged the mind with the fatalism of christianity.
I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. Complete resposibility requires complete freedom, which only the most wealthy and powerful in this world enjoy.
None of those are answers-they are nothing fancier than deferring it to somewhere we cannot fathom. If you call it an answer, then it is a coward's answer, for it is no answer at all-just synonyms for "I don't know". The last is still more respectable than dishonest answers which say the same...
OK. I said as much that "I don't know." What's your answer to the question of why some people are born with wealth and power and most other people are not?
Why would it be specific or known to you? It is the opposite of christianity, however-much closer to Judaism in my opinion than christianity is lol. Regardless, why would you indicate to understand all religions and philosophies? Why would you imply you're interested when we know you're not, and THAT is the true nature of it being "vague".
I don't understand this. I'm sorry.
If the Earth isn't defiled-then no other world would be necessary, yet the bible is clear that another world exists. Your generalizations are not only false, but simply not convincing. You are clearly not familiar with the history of China for example.
It apperas clear to me now that your username is apt and well-chosen. Good day, sir.
Yet, we exist-and that's where that truth is claimed, so again, it requires a higher likelihood that it being in an invisible being that likely (by any account) does NOT exist.
There is as much proof for the existence of God as there is proof that (a) one can overcome anything and (b) there is some metaphysical immutable truth within us.
False. There is ample proof that human beings overcome many things, and there is ample proof of US. Therefore, my claim is miles ahead of any claim of an invisible god...
Absolutely. Complete responsibility-which means not only is now the sum of all my past causes, but now is also the start point for infinite futures. All quite impossible if one has caged the mind with the fatalism of christianity.
I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. Complete resposibility requires complete freedom, which only the most wealthy and powerful in this world enjoy.
None of those are answers-they are nothing fancier than deferring it to somewhere we cannot fathom. If you call it an answer, then it is a coward's answer, for it is no answer at all-just synonyms for "I don't know". The last is still more respectable than dishonest answers which say the same...
OK. I said as much that "I don't know." What's your answer to the question of why some people are born with wealth and power and most other people are not?
Already answered, true eternity-which means past lives determine the beginning and many events of this one. Just as what you are now, determines your plans for the future in this life, and beyond.
There are only 3 explanations for the starting points from a theist perspective:
1/ Sadistic, but all powerful god.
2/ Loving, but not all powerful god.
3/ Sadistic non-all powerful god.
Note, none of the 3 work with christianity... which explains the "I don't know".
There are 2 more, from a non-theistic standpoint, both are more logical than the above:
1/ Chance & No meaning.
2/ Reincarnation with cause and effect.
Why would it be specific or known to you? It is the opposite of christianity, however-much closer to Judaism in my opinion than christianity is lol. Regardless, why would you indicate to understand all religions and philosophies? Why would you imply you're interested when we know you're not, and THAT is the true nature of it being "vague".
I don't understand this. I'm sorry.
Not necessary, nor is an apology. The point stands.
If the Earth isn't defiled-then no other world would be necessary, yet the bible is clear that another world exists. Your generalizations are not only false, but simply not convincing. You are clearly not familiar with the history of China for example.
It apperas clear to me now that your username is apt and well-chosen. Good day, sir.
Ad Hominem, which means concession of the point, thank you.
One thing is for sure folks... with christians such as this, there is no question that the christian heaven is a place to avoid, real or false, assuming it is packed with such superior folks.
Smart choice--always chose oblivion over life.
No, the correct statement is: "Always choose equality over tyranny."
I cannot see any meaning there.
Of course not, you are christian.
I suspect that is not the problem. Perhaps the problem is, there is no meaning there.
The meaning is obvious and true, unless blinded by a lowly teaching that prevents one from seeing reality.
Your meaning is not obvious and my theology is not preventing me from seeing reality if you presented a logical reality.
One thing is for sure folks... with christians such as this, there is no question that the christian heaven is a place to avoid, real or false, assuming it is packed with such superior folks.
Smart choice--always chose oblivion over life.
No, the correct statement is: "Always choose equality over tyranny."
I cannot see any meaning there.
Of course not, you are christian.
I suspect that is not the problem. Perhaps the problem is, there is no meaning there.
The meaning is obvious and true, unless blinded by a lowly teaching that prevents one from seeing reality.
Your meaning is not obvious and my theology is not preventing me from seeing reality if you presented a logical reality.
I present nothing-it presents itself. You are the one trying to escape it and looking for an EASIER place to live; as I said, "cowardice", and nothing fancier than that.
I've also shown how the theology cages the mind from even looking... much less finding-so you actually proved my point with your avoidance and inability to understand such a simple thing...
One thing is for sure folks... with christians such as this, there is no question that the christian heaven is a place to avoid, real or false, assuming it is packed with such superior folks.
Smart choice--always chose oblivion over life.
No, the correct statement is: "Always choose equality over tyranny."
I cannot see any meaning there.
Of course not, you are christian.
I suspect that is not the problem. Perhaps the problem is, there is no meaning there.
The meaning is obvious and true, unless blinded by a lowly teaching that prevents one from seeing reality.
Your meaning is not obvious and my theology is not preventing me from seeing reality if you presented a logical reality.
I present nothing-it presents itself. You are the one trying to escape it and looking for an EASIER place to live; as I said, "cowardice", and nothing fancier than that.
I've also shown how the theology cages the mind from even looking... much less finding-so you actually proved my point with your avoidance and inability to understand such a simple thing...
I think you are believing in things that do not exist--as for example the inability of a human being to enjoy this life and look forward to the next.
One thing is for sure folks... with christians such as this, there is no question that the christian heaven is a place to avoid, real or false, assuming it is packed with such superior folks.
Smart choice--always chose oblivion over life.
No, the correct statement is: "Always choose equality over tyranny."
I cannot see any meaning there.
Of course not, you are christian.
I suspect that is not the problem. Perhaps the problem is, there is no meaning there.
The meaning is obvious and true, unless blinded by a lowly teaching that prevents one from seeing reality.
Your meaning is not obvious and my theology is not preventing me from seeing reality if you presented a logical reality.
I present nothing-it presents itself. You are the one trying to escape it and looking for an EASIER place to live; as I said, "cowardice", and nothing fancier than that.
I've also shown how the theology cages the mind from even looking... much less finding-so you actually proved my point with your avoidance and inability to understand such a simple thing...
I think you are believing in things that do not exist--as for example the inability of a human being to enjoy this life and look forward to the next.
That's not what I've said. I've said that if you believe in a better life elsewhere than you cannot believe that happiness in this life is anything more than "limited" and "less" by definition. And that is not a belief, it is basic logic.
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