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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 1:19PM #81
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

Apr 30, 2012 -- 6:14AM, Keyfer wrote:


Apr 30, 2012 -- 12:08AM, costrel wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 9:17AM, Burnman wrote:

God Incarnate did not give us an exact discription of heaven.


The Incarnate God perhaps did not give Christians an exact description of Heaven, but in the Koran the One God did give very detailed descriptions of what Heaven will be like. For instance, it will consist of an oasis with rivers flowing through it, and people will sit around peacefully on couches and carpets under the trees picking fruit to eat from the branches, and they will drink wine that does not intoxicate, and will discuss holy and sacred topics, and will be ministered to by ever-youthful heavenly young women and men. 




I can't help but wonder if it will be heaven to the "ever-youthful heavenly young women and men" who are doing the ministering.




That caught my eye too. I was thinking. It sounds like in their heaven there is a lower class. Perhaps even slavery?

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 1:22PM #82
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

Apr 29, 2012 -- 6:31AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 3:00PM, mainecaptain wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 12:41PM, Kwinters wrote:



As I said, even unending bliss would eventually become tedious and boring.




Very true. A heavenly place for some people, might actually be something many would consider hell. Some people might find being at war ideal for themselves. Others might find travel ideal for themselves. Heavenly would indeed be different for everyone, and endlessly singing the praises of the Abrahamic deity would like not be for most.




I know a show where Heaven was personalised: everyone went to their own heaven.


Thing is, if we think about what happens to people who get everything they want, when they want it, those people turn into megalomaniac authoritarian psychopaths.




Yes you did, I read your posts with interest :)


And you are correct  "people who get everything they want, when they want it, those people turn into megalomaniac authoritarian psychopaths" We have such people living on earth now.


A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 1:30PM #83
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

If there is a heaven (and I'm optimistically agnostic on that question) this is probably what I expect it's like:


I was happy. Wherever I was ... I was happy ...at peace. I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time...didn't mean anything. Nothing had form. But I was still me, you know? And I was warm. And I was loved. And I was finished. Complete. I ... I don't understand theology or dimensions, any of it really... but I think I was in heaven.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 2:28PM #84
costrel
Posts: 6,226

Apr 30, 2012 -- 1:19PM, mainecaptain wrote:

Apr 30, 2012 -- 6:14AM, Keyfer wrote:

Apr 30, 2012 -- 12:08AM, costrel wrote:

Apr 28, 2012 -- 9:17AM, Burnman wrote:

God Incarnate did not give us an exact discription of heaven.


The Incarnate God perhaps did not give Christians an exact description of Heaven, but in the Koran the One God did give very detailed descriptions of what Heaven will be like. For instance, it will consist of an oasis with rivers flowing through it, and people will sit around peacefully on couches and carpets under the trees picking fruit to eat from the branches, and they will drink wine that does not intoxicate, and will discuss holy and sacred topics, and will be ministered to by ever-youthful heavenly young women and men. 


I can't help but wonder if it will be heaven to the "ever-youthful heavenly young women and men" who are doing the ministering.


 That caught my eye too. I was thinking. It sounds like in their heaven there is a lower class. Perhaps even slavery?


I know virtually nothing about Islam besides what I read in the Koran, so I don't know what the differences might be between the angels (which all have male names), the jinns, and the young maidens and men of Paradise (who apparently are divided into two groups, servers and companions, the companions being female and known as Houris). Here are the references to the youths of Paradise that I have found in the Koran:


"Shall I tell you of (things) even better? With the Lord are gardens with running streams of water for those who keep from evil and follow the straight path, where they will live unchanged with the purest of companions and blessings of God." -- 3:15


"But those who believe and do good deeds We shall admit into gardens with streams of running water, where they will abide for ever, with fairest of companions and coolest of shades." -- 4:57


"And with them maidens of modest look and large lustrous eyes, like sheltered eggs in a nest." -- 37:48-49


"Gardens of Eden with gates open wide for them, where they will take their ease, calling for fruits in plenty, and for wine, with companions of modest look, the same in age, by their side." -- 38:52


"We shall pair them with companions with large black eyes." -- 44:54


"They would recline on couches set in rows, paired with fair companions (clean of thougtht and) bright of eye." -- 52:20


"And young attendants like pearls within their shells will go round" -- 52:24


"In them [the two gardens] maidens with averted glances, undeflowered by man or jinn before them" -- 55:56


"In them [the two gardens] good and comely maidens -- How many favours of the Lord will you then deny? -- Houris cloistered in pavilions -- How many favours of your Lord will you then deny? -- Undeflowered by man or by jinn before them" -- 55:70-74


"Youths of never-ending bloom will pass round to them cups and decanters, beakers full of sparkling wine, unheady, uninebriating; and such fruits as they fancy, bird meats that they relish, and companions with big beautiful eyes like pearls within their shells, as recompense for all they had done." -- 56:17-24


"[...] And fruits numberless, unending, unforbidden, and maidens incomparable. We have formed them in a distinctive fashion, and made them virginal, loving companions matched in age, for those of the right hand." -- 56:34-38


"And boys of everlasting youth will go about attending them." -- 76:19


"As for those who preseve themselves from evil and follow the straight path, there is attainment for them: orchards and vineyards, and graceful maidens of the same age, and flasks full and flowing." -- 78:32-34


These youths were apparently made to specifically serve the faithful -- and especially the men -- in Paradise. Like the angels, they are apparently meant to bow before human beings. The Koran narrates how Iblis (Satan) became a disbeliever: "Remember, when We asked the angels to bow in homage to Adam, they all bowed but Iblis, who disdained and turned insolent, and so became a disbeliever" (2:34). I would assume that if any of these youths of Paradise were to refuse to serve human beings, they also would be damned as disbelievers like Iblis was damned. But of course, this is all speculation on my part, as I know virtually nothing about Islam besides what I read in Ahmed Ali's English translation of Al-Qur'an.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 2:31PM #85
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

Thank you Costrel Smile

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 2:31PM #86
costrel
Posts: 6,226

Apr 30, 2012 -- 1:30PM, nieciedo wrote:

If there is a heaven (and I'm optimistically agnostic on that question) this is probably what I expect it's like:

I was happy. Wherever I was ... I was happy ...at peace. I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time...didn't mean anything. Nothing had form. But I was still me, you know? And I was warm. And I was loved. And I was finished. Complete. I ... I don't understand theology or dimensions, any of it really... but I think I was in heaven.



Ah, poor Buffy Anne Summers -- pulled out of Heaven by her well-meaning friends who resurrected her through the use of magic and then left her to crawl her way out of her coffin and her grave because they didn't think their spell had worked...

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 2:32PM #87
lope
Posts: 11,752

Apr 30, 2012 -- 1:22PM, mainecaptain wrote:


Apr 29, 2012 -- 6:31AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 3:00PM, mainecaptain wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 12:41PM, Kwinters wrote:



As I said, even unending bliss would eventually become tedious and boring.




Very true. A heavenly place for some people, might actually be something many would consider hell. Some people might find being at war ideal for themselves. Others might find travel ideal for themselves. Heavenly would indeed be different for everyone, and endlessly singing the praises of the Abrahamic deity would like not be for most.




I know a show where Heaven was personalised: everyone went to their own heaven.


Thing is, if we think about what happens to people who get everything they want, when they want it, those people turn into megalomaniac authoritarian psychopaths.




Yes you did, I read your posts with interest :)


And you are correct  "people who get everything they want, when they want it, those people turn into megalomaniac authoritarian psychopaths" We have such people living on earth now.






Assuming the same thing will happen in a spiritual realm that happens in a physical realm is not reasonable.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 2:33PM #88
costrel
Posts: 6,226

Apr 30, 2012 -- 2:31PM, mainecaptain wrote:

Thank you Costrel


You're welcome, Mainecaptain! Smile


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 4:01PM #89
Kwinters
Posts: 22,119

Apr 30, 2012 -- 11:24AM, lope wrote:


Apr 29, 2012 -- 6:42AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 3:49PM, lope wrote:


Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world.  Your verses do not prove He was talking about a physical kingdom---He said in His kingdom the greatest would be the greatest servant and washed people's feet.  Do you see that kingdom anywhere in history as an earthly kingdom?  Paul said we would have spiritual bodies not natural bodies.  It was never about an earthly kingdom.




But how do you wash feet without water? That requires a material place that behaves like earth.  And we have already discussed the many, many passages where Jesus describes his kingdom with physical properties.


You, on the other hand, take one line that could be read as the KoG being unlike the corrupt world he saw around him and change it into a reading that does not have textual support.





It is not about the literal washing of feet.  




How do you know? 


Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 4:03PM #90
Kwinters
Posts: 22,119

This text was popular in the early Christian church:


The Apocalypse of Peter



4. And furthermore the Lord said: Let us go into the mountain: Let us pray.. And going with him, we, the twelve disciples, begged that he would show us one of our brethren, the righteous who are gone forth out of the world, in order that we might see of what manner of form they are, and having taken courage, might also encourage the men who hear us.


6. And as we prayed, suddenly there appeared two men standing before the Lord towards the East, on whom we were not able to look; 7, for there came forth from their countenance a ray as of the sun, and their raiment was shining, such as eye of man never saw; for no mouth is able to express or heart to conceive the glory with which they were endued, and the beauty of their appearance. 8. And as we looked upon them, we were astounded; for their bodies were whiter than any snow and ruddier than any rose; 9, and the red thereof was mingled with the white, and I am utterly unable to express their beauty; 10, for their hair was curly and bright and seemly both on their face and shoulders, as it were a wreath woven of spikenard and divers-coloured flowers, or like a rainbow in the sky, such was their seemliness.


11. Seeing therefore their beauty we became astounded at them, since they appeared suddenly. 12. And I approached the Lord and said: Who are these? 13. He saith to me: These are your brethren the righteous, whose forms ye desired to see. 14. And I said to him: And where are all the righteous ones and what is the aeon in which they are and have this glory?


15. And the Lord showed me a very great country outside of this world, exceeding bright with light, and the air there lighted with the rays of the sun, and the earth itself blooming with unfading flowers and full of spices and plants, fair-flowering and incorruptible and bearing blessed fruit. 16. And so great was the perfume that it was borne thence even unto us. 17. And the dwellers in that place were clad in the raiment of shining angels and their raiment was like unto their country; and angels hovered about them there. 18. And the glory of the dwellers there was equal, and with one voice they sang praises alternately to the Lord God, rejoicing in that place. 19. The Lord saith to us: This is the place of your high-priests, the righteous men.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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