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3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 8:50AM #31
dio
Posts: 5,081

Apr 27, 2012 -- 10:13AM, SecondSonOfDavid wrote:

Every now and then, someone brings up heaven and/or hell.  The conversation usually quickly devolves, I think because people all have some strong ideas about H & H, but those ideas run a wide spectrum in at at least five dimensions about the character and qualities of those places.  So, this being Friday and folks having been WAAAAAAY too tense on topics debated recently, I'd like to suggest a happier topic with less stressful atributes.

For the purpose of this thread, I suggest we accept the following assumptions:

1. There is an afterlife following the life we know
2. For this discussion, you go to the "good" place.
3. This place is eternal, but in many ways can be experienced and described in terms similar to our earth.
4. Commonly accepted virtues of Charity, Compassion, Generosity, Justice, Freedom, Peace and Honor are pronounced here and universally accepted.

Given those assumptions, what would heaven (for a label) be like?  What would our bodies be like?   How will we interact with other people, including those who were opponents and enemies in the moral world?  What do you do in heaven?  

Please respect the opinions and cultures of others who present their perspective, and remember that since none of us are there yet, no one can prove their opinion is "right" and the others "wrong".  

Thanks in Advance.




































ps - yes I have my own ideas but don't want to post them first.  It would be like talking to myself, to ask a question then answer it in a banal soliloquoy. 



I believe heaven is the place all the accepted virtues are realized, and it could start on earth.



 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 9:17AM #32
Burnman
Posts: 3,326

Apr 27, 2012 -- 3:00PM, mainecaptain wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 12:41PM, Kwinters wrote:



As I said, even unending bliss would eventually become tedious and boring.




Very true. A heavenly place for some people, might actually be something many would consider hell. Some people might find being at war ideal for themselves. Others might find travel ideal for themselves. Heavenly would indeed be different for everyone, and endlessly singing the praises of the Abrahamic deity would like not be for most.





Hmm, do either of you have any practical experience to back up this "truth" of unending bliss being "tedious and boring"?


God Incarnate did not give us an exact discription of heaven.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 10:46AM #33
lope
Posts: 11,796

Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:01PM, Blü wrote:


Seefan


We are told in scripture that heaven can be experienced here and now but in a spiritual sense.


Where are we told this, exactly?





Jesus annouced the Kingdom of heaven was here.  Paul said we have already passed over from death to life.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 11:18AM #34
Blü
Posts: 25,098

Seefan


In one place Matthew talks about it.  We call it the Lord's prayer - "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" ...  Thy kingdom is a spiritual one therefore heaven is spiritual and can be experienced here and now if we follow what the scriptures teach us


The Kingdom of Paul and the gospels and Revelation &c is an earthly kingdom.  This is why Paul's Jesus is returning imminently, and the Jesus of Matthew, Mark and Luke will return to earth to bring in the Kingdom in the life of some of the people listening to him say so.


Mark 9
1  And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power."

Matthew 16
28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming into his kingdom.

Luke 9
27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 11:22AM #35
Blü
Posts: 25,098

Burnman


Hmm, do either of you have any practical experience to back up this "truth" of unending bliss being "tedious and boring"?


So what do you plan to do for all eternity?


Crossword puzzles?  Learn Arabic?  Copy out the Britannica?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 11:29AM #36
MMarcoe
Posts: 16,926

Apr 27, 2012 -- 2:22PM, SecondSonOfDavid wrote:


To those who deny a material Heaven, what about children and babies who die before reaching adulthood?  What about people who give up comforts to protect and care for loved ones?  




I don't see what your point is.

1. Extremists think that thinking means agreeing with them.
2. There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.
3. God is just a personification of reality, of pure objectivity.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 11:29AM #37
JimRigas
Posts: 2,950

Apr 28, 2012 -- 11:22AM, Blü wrote:


So what do you plan to do for all eternity?


Crossword puzzles?  Learn Arabic?  Copy out the Britannica?




Actually it does not last for an eternity.  It just feels like one.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 2:38PM #38
Seefan
Posts: 3,969

Apr 28, 2012 -- 11:18AM, Blü wrote:


Seefan


In one place Matthew talks about it. We call it the Lord's prayer - "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" ... Thy kingdom is a spiritual one therefore heaven is spiritual and can be experienced here and now if we follow what the scriptures teach us


The Kingdom of Paul and the gospels and Revelation &c is an earthly kingdom. This is why Paul's Jesus is returning imminently, and the Jesus of Matthew, Mark and Luke will return to earth to bring in the Kingdom in the life of some of the people listening to him say so.


The spiritual cannot be material!  The kingdom of God is a spiritual concept!  When I read scripture I realize that while some of what is being described can be manifested in the physical world and relate directly to the physical plane, if it applies to the spiritual such as the kingdom it is not saying the God is physically coming to earth.  That impossible for God is spirit!  That doesn’t mean the world doesn’t become better as in the people who have applied those spiritual principles (attributes of God) collectively. 


Mark 9
1 And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power."
The death referred to here certainly is a physical death. Those who follow Jesus' teaching and apply its principles will see the power of Jesus’ teachings begin to become a power for societal change within their own lifetime as they get converts and see the miracles happening through the changes taking place in the lives who have believed in Jesus' message ...


Matthew 16
28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming into his kingdom.
Here coming into His kingdom is a spiritual concept/understanding.  The power of Jesus’ Word, His revelation, is what is forming into a effective vehicle for change ...
Luke 9
27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.


Same as Matthew 16:26!  But all 3 basically means the same when understood from a spiritual stance ...




 


 

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 2:57PM #39
Ebon
Posts: 10,148

I think there would have to be thousands of heavens, potentially one for everyone. Even my non-Christian understanding of the Bible supports that: "In my father's mansion, there are many rooms", potentially a "heaven for everyone" (as Freddie Mercury put it). So with that in mind, I can only describe what my own version of heaven, my own paradise, would be like.


When I was small, my Grimmer (grandmother) used to take me to a local shop every Saturday and buy me a new book. Because it was a treat, I used to look forward to it all week and it instilled a life-long love of reading that's never left me and also caused me to associate books with love.


So my paradise is books. A vast library filled not just with every book ever written but every book that could have been written. Everything is there; Fermat's last theorum, Einstein's grand unified theory, the Dirk Gentley book that Douglas Adams died before finishing, everything. And somewhere in that library is a battered easy chair with a notebook and pen on the arm, next to a bottomless pot of coffee and an endless pack of cigarettes (this being paradise, you get the taste without the harm) and an old-fashioned table lamp. On the floor next to the chair are some battered reference books stuffed with makeshift bookmarks. And there's me, nose-deep in some tome, scribbling notes with all my cats curled up around me (Grimmer once said that if it didn't have her dogs, it wouldn't be heaven. I hold to the same thing with my cats). I could happily spend eternity like that, all knowledge at my fingertips and all eternity to understand it. Maybe pipe in some quiet music.


Ah well, maybe one day.

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 3:49PM #40
lope
Posts: 11,796

Apr 28, 2012 -- 11:18AM, Blü wrote:


Seefan


In one place Matthew talks about it.  We call it the Lord's prayer - "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" ...  Thy kingdom is a spiritual one therefore heaven is spiritual and can be experienced here and now if we follow what the scriptures teach us


The Kingdom of Paul and the gospels and Revelation &c is an earthly kingdom.  This is why Paul's Jesus is returning imminently, and the Jesus of Matthew, Mark and Luke will return to earth to bring in the Kingdom in the life of some of the people listening to him say so.


Mark 9
1  And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power."

Matthew 16
28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming into his kingdom.

Luke 9
27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.





Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world.  Your verses do not prove He was talking about a physical kingdom---He said in His kingdom the greatest would be the greatest servant and washed people's feet.  Do you see that kingdom anywhere in history as an earthly kingdom?  Paul said we would have spiritual bodies not natural bodies.  It was never about an earthly kingdom.

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