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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 2:09PM #211
lope
Posts: 11,652

May 4, 2012 -- 1:21PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 1:09PM, nieciedo wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 12:53PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:

 
This all assumes that this moment has no effect on the next, which is incorrect.  Destiny is chosen by who one is in each moment.  And I agree, consciousness doesn't survive-but that's irrelevant if one's motives are pure.  If one is acting from one's nature instead of based on who is watching or what the reward/punishment is... then it matters, no matter what, even if one doesn't remember.



How does one determine if one's motives are "pure?"


And of course I have an answer, but it's irrelevant if you cannot see the obvious issue of why this world being "defiled" or "less" compared to the next is a very lowly view of the self and this world-which are one.  Again, purity is in the mind, which means ANY LAND is the pure land.  A land is not pure by its own accord, but only by reflecting the pure mind.  Christianity has no interest in the mind, but only in the land-to be purified by an outside force at a later date, which again limits its adherents ability to focus on this life with the belief in true happiness here and now.




Having an answer and not sharing it is pretty much the same as not having an answer.


What is "true happiness?"




If one has to think it over before acting-motives are not pure.  If one lives it, then it's pure.  It must be natural, not based on some debate or reasoning-and certainly not self motivated, like gaining the favor of a sky monster or something like that-might as well do the opposite then.



True Happiness, is the confidence that one can overcome anything, based on immutable truth within, it is a love of life itself, in the moment.  Anything based on outside circumstances, like spouse, job, money, etc. is temporary and false as it is based on something outside the self.





True happiness is not achieved by our doing something for ourselves--only when we can make someone else happy will we be happy.  It is always a good idea to think about what we are going to do before we do it.

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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 2:14PM #212
lope
Posts: 11,652

May 4, 2012 -- 12:48PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 10:09AM, lope wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 7:31PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


One thing is for sure folks... with christians such as this, there is no question that the christian heaven is a place to avoid, real or false, assuming it is packed with such superior folks.  





Smart choice--always chose oblivion over life.




No, the correct statement is:  "Always choose equality over tyranny."





I cannot see any meaning there.

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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 2:30PM #213
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

May 4, 2012 -- 2:09PM, lope wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 1:21PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 1:09PM, nieciedo wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 12:53PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:

 
This all assumes that this moment has no effect on the next, which is incorrect.  Destiny is chosen by who one is in each moment.  And I agree, consciousness doesn't survive-but that's irrelevant if one's motives are pure.  If one is acting from one's nature instead of based on who is watching or what the reward/punishment is... then it matters, no matter what, even if one doesn't remember.



How does one determine if one's motives are "pure?"


And of course I have an answer, but it's irrelevant if you cannot see the obvious issue of why this world being "defiled" or "less" compared to the next is a very lowly view of the self and this world-which are one.  Again, purity is in the mind, which means ANY LAND is the pure land.  A land is not pure by its own accord, but only by reflecting the pure mind.  Christianity has no interest in the mind, but only in the land-to be purified by an outside force at a later date, which again limits its adherents ability to focus on this life with the belief in true happiness here and now.




Having an answer and not sharing it is pretty much the same as not having an answer.


What is "true happiness?"




If one has to think it over before acting-motives are not pure.  If one lives it, then it's pure.  It must be natural, not based on some debate or reasoning-and certainly not self motivated, like gaining the favor of a sky monster or something like that-might as well do the opposite then.



True Happiness, is the confidence that one can overcome anything, based on immutable truth within, it is a love of life itself, in the moment.  Anything based on outside circumstances, like spouse, job, money, etc. is temporary and false as it is based on something outside the self.





True happiness is not achieved by our doing something for ourselves--only when we can make someone else happy will we be happy.  It is always a good idea to think about what we are going to do before we do it.




If you have to think first, it's based on reason, not that you are LIVING that behavior.  That is about outcome, not meaning.   And you miss the issue:  One cannot truly respect others without first respecting the self.  One cannot love others, without loving the self.  Christians focus on action-but that is shallow vs. focusing on what is underneath the action, which is what is real.

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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 2:31PM #214
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

May 4, 2012 -- 2:14PM, lope wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 12:48PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 10:09AM, lope wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 7:31PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


One thing is for sure folks... with christians such as this, there is no question that the christian heaven is a place to avoid, real or false, assuming it is packed with such superior folks.  





Smart choice--always chose oblivion over life.




No, the correct statement is:  "Always choose equality over tyranny."





I cannot see any meaning there.




Of course not, you are christian.

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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 2:35PM #215
lope
Posts: 11,652

May 4, 2012 -- 2:31PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 2:14PM, lope wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 12:48PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 10:09AM, lope wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 7:31PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


One thing is for sure folks... with christians such as this, there is no question that the christian heaven is a place to avoid, real or false, assuming it is packed with such superior folks.  





Smart choice--always chose oblivion over life.




No, the correct statement is:  "Always choose equality over tyranny."





I cannot see any meaning there.




Of course not, you are christian.





I suspect that is not the problem.  Perhaps the problem is, there is no meaning there.

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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 2:40PM #216
lope
Posts: 11,652

May 4, 2012 -- 2:30PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 2:09PM, lope wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 1:21PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 1:09PM, nieciedo wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 12:53PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:

 
This all assumes that this moment has no effect on the next, which is incorrect.  Destiny is chosen by who one is in each moment.  And I agree, consciousness doesn't survive-but that's irrelevant if one's motives are pure.  If one is acting from one's nature instead of based on who is watching or what the reward/punishment is... then it matters, no matter what, even if one doesn't remember.



How does one determine if one's motives are "pure?"


And of course I have an answer, but it's irrelevant if you cannot see the obvious issue of why this world being "defiled" or "less" compared to the next is a very lowly view of the self and this world-which are one.  Again, purity is in the mind, which means ANY LAND is the pure land.  A land is not pure by its own accord, but only by reflecting the pure mind.  Christianity has no interest in the mind, but only in the land-to be purified by an outside force at a later date, which again limits its adherents ability to focus on this life with the belief in true happiness here and now.




Having an answer and not sharing it is pretty much the same as not having an answer.


What is "true happiness?"




If one has to think it over before acting-motives are not pure.  If one lives it, then it's pure.  It must be natural, not based on some debate or reasoning-and certainly not self motivated, like gaining the favor of a sky monster or something like that-might as well do the opposite then.



True Happiness, is the confidence that one can overcome anything, based on immutable truth within, it is a love of life itself, in the moment.  Anything based on outside circumstances, like spouse, job, money, etc. is temporary and false as it is based on something outside the self.





True happiness is not achieved by our doing something for ourselves--only when we can make someone else happy will we be happy.  It is always a good idea to think about what we are going to do before we do it.




If you have to think first, it's based on reason, not that you are LIVING that behavior.  That is about outcome, not meaning.   And you miss the issue:  One cannot truly respect others without first respecting the self.  One cannot love others, without loving the self.  Christians focus on action-but that is shallow vs. focusing on what is underneath the action, which is what is real.





I don't have to think first, but thinking first before acting is not bad--there is nothing bad about it.  Meaning can come from thinking and then acting.  I am not missing the issue.  I don't agree with the issue.  I do agree that intent is important, but I do not agree that focusing on the action is shallow.

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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 3:32PM #217
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

May 4, 2012 -- 2:40PM, lope wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 2:30PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 2:09PM, lope wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 1:21PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 1:09PM, nieciedo wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 12:53PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:

 
This all assumes that this moment has no effect on the next, which is incorrect.  Destiny is chosen by who one is in each moment.  And I agree, consciousness doesn't survive-but that's irrelevant if one's motives are pure.  If one is acting from one's nature instead of based on who is watching or what the reward/punishment is... then it matters, no matter what, even if one doesn't remember.



How does one determine if one's motives are "pure?"


And of course I have an answer, but it's irrelevant if you cannot see the obvious issue of why this world being "defiled" or "less" compared to the next is a very lowly view of the self and this world-which are one.  Again, purity is in the mind, which means ANY LAND is the pure land.  A land is not pure by its own accord, but only by reflecting the pure mind.  Christianity has no interest in the mind, but only in the land-to be purified by an outside force at a later date, which again limits its adherents ability to focus on this life with the belief in true happiness here and now.




Having an answer and not sharing it is pretty much the same as not having an answer.


What is "true happiness?"




If one has to think it over before acting-motives are not pure.  If one lives it, then it's pure.  It must be natural, not based on some debate or reasoning-and certainly not self motivated, like gaining the favor of a sky monster or something like that-might as well do the opposite then.



True Happiness, is the confidence that one can overcome anything, based on immutable truth within, it is a love of life itself, in the moment.  Anything based on outside circumstances, like spouse, job, money, etc. is temporary and false as it is based on something outside the self.





True happiness is not achieved by our doing something for ourselves--only when we can make someone else happy will we be happy.  It is always a good idea to think about what we are going to do before we do it.




If you have to think first, it's based on reason, not that you are LIVING that behavior.  That is about outcome, not meaning.   And you miss the issue:  One cannot truly respect others without first respecting the self.  One cannot love others, without loving the self.  Christians focus on action-but that is shallow vs. focusing on what is underneath the action, which is what is real.





I don't have to think first, but thinking first before acting is not bad--there is nothing bad about it.  Meaning can come from thinking and then acting.  I am not missing the issue.  I don't agree with the issue.  I do agree that intent is important, but I do not agree that focusing on the action is shallow.




Then you haven't given it much thought.  The millionaire may donate $200k to the charity-for a tax break.  And the homeless woman may donate her last dollar, out of sincerity.  


By your argument, the former is a more valuable deed.  By mine, only the intent matters, NOT the action-thus the latter is more valuable.

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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 3:32PM #218
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

May 4, 2012 -- 2:35PM, lope wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 2:31PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 2:14PM, lope wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 12:48PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 10:09AM, lope wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 7:31PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


One thing is for sure folks... with christians such as this, there is no question that the christian heaven is a place to avoid, real or false, assuming it is packed with such superior folks.  





Smart choice--always chose oblivion over life.




No, the correct statement is:  "Always choose equality over tyranny."





I cannot see any meaning there.




Of course not, you are christian.





I suspect that is not the problem.  Perhaps the problem is, there is no meaning there.




The meaning is obvious and true, unless blinded by a lowly teaching that prevents one from seeing reality.

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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 3:53PM #219
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

May 4, 2012 -- 1:35PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


First, you make too many assumptions; nobody mentioned instinct.  Second, we exist, there is ample evidence.  That said, since there is no evidence of gods, it is MUCH MORE plausible.  


Now, I've answered many questions.... yet I notice that mine regarding "different starting points" has yet to be answered, even though it predates several questions I've answered.  I guess we have to chalk it up to the rigged game that christianity presents!(?)!





We may exist, but there is zero evidence for the belief that one can overcome anything and there is zero evidence for any sort of immutable internal truth.


Your contention that cause and effect leads to justice implies that the effect of oppression and exploitation experienced by victims is a just result of their cause at the hands of tyrants. Is that so?


Christianity has many answers for the "different starting points" question, but they boil down to the "will of God" which is the same as "luck of the draw." The idea that a person is born into a certain condition seems to imply that the person pre-exists his conception/birth and is put in that spot by God for His own purposes. That's a possibility, but I don't know how likely it is.


Rather, I think people are born into the circumstances in which they are because of the people who had sex to produce them. Then we attain awareness of the situation we find ourselves in and we have choices to make: to live for ourselves or for others, to to what is right or what is convenient, to base our actions on love or selfishness. Maybe there are lessons for each person to learn, maybe there are tasks for each person to carry out based on his or her location or talents or skills. I don't know. I only have faith, just as you do in your still vague to me ideology.


The Earth and the cosmos is not fallen and defiled, but human society definitely is. Every civilization that has heretofore existed up to the present day is founded on exploitation and oppression and the struggle between the haves and the have-nots. My faith tells me that it is God's will that we should strive to better ourselves and live lives of love and self-giving so thereby that the revolution in the microcosm leads to revelotion in the macrocosm: for the mighty to be cast down from their thrones and the lowly exalted, the hungry to eat their fill and the rich to be sent away empty.

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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 3:55PM #220
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

May 4, 2012 -- 3:32PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


Then you haven't given it much thought.  The millionaire may donate $200k to the charity-for a tax break.  And the homeless woman may donate her last dollar, out of sincerity.  


By your argument, the former is a more valuable deed.  By mine, only the intent matters, NOT the action-thus the latter is more valuable.





You are making the same point Jesus did with the widow's mite.

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