Post Reply
Page 20 of 25  •  Prev 1 ... 18 19 20 21 22 ... 25 Next
2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 12:02AM #191
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

May 3, 2012 -- 11:25PM, nieciedo wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 6:32PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


Most Jews would disagree and argue that Judaism and the Torah really don't talk about a world to come, but rather only address THIS WORLD.  Please show me a few references of the world to come according to the Torah?



As I said, the emphasis of the Jewish religion is on living life in this world, but Jewish tradition maintains that there is/will be a World-to-Come. The Rabbis discuss it in numerous places in the Talmud, and references to it pepper the traditional liturgy. It is an article of faith for Orthodox Jews.


And the inconsistency has been made clear:  If the goal is some other world, one cannot give THIS world full attention, it must be secondary.   I didn't say one could not improve their life.  The chained elephant still smiles from time to time-but he does in fact remain chained and unable to move freely.  Don't add extra points and claim they are from my mouth, CERTAINLY prior to addressing my obvious and stated points!



You ignore my points. I agreed with you that if one's goal is some other world then this world is seconday. What I have tried to bring to your attention is that this is not a necessary or central element of living a Christian life.


More Judaism??  Please explain what Judaism has to do with my arguments?  I question the ability to connect Judaism and Christianity via doctrine lol, but there is no question it is completely irrelevant to this discussion.  If you are a Jew and a Christian sympathizer, that's super-but not my problem nor relevant to the discussion.  Please stick to christianity.  There is no question Judaism addresses THIS world in my mind, and I would not make the same arguments against Judaism that I've made here.



First, I'm not a Jew. I used to be, but now I am a Christian (Beliefnet won't let me update my profile). I thought you were claiming that belief in an afterlife categorically meant that one cannot focus on life in this world; traditional Judaism refutes that.


Lastly-please don't hijack my font color if responding to me.  I wrote in green as Lope can't quote properly and screws it all up-green allows me, him/her, and all others to see who is saying what, yet-you used my font and reversed the intention.  So if I missed a point of yours, regardless of you ignoring mine and inventing additional ones which were not, I'm happy to address yours, but not if you bury it in MY sea of green :)




Sorry. It was an HTML problem. But you still ignore or dismiss my points, so I feel like I'm talking to myself :(




I didn't check your profile, I simply noticed a repeated, yet off topic wandering into Judaism-which has nothing to do with this, and less to do with christianity in my opinion.  But again-neither of our opinions -on Judaism- is relevant here.


And no, if you are focused on this world-then the next is irrelevant, much less a core of theology.  The ultimate goal is not here, that much is clear.  I cannot think of a christian sect that says THIS WORLD is the one that matters-which one/s do?

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 12:04AM #192
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

May 3, 2012 -- 10:24PM, Adelphe wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 9:04PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


"deserved" is a lowly christian term, not part of my theology.  So do you have an explanation from the bible for the starting points or not?



I'm sure you can answer that question yourself as "a former Christian." 


So moving on, you claimed that "Justice determines why one man is born here, and another there, with differing circumstances" and we want to know how "justice" "determined" that baby should be born in those circumstances.



Still no quotes from the Torah to prove me wrong... even though you superiorily rolled your eyes at my point that Jews don't care about or think about afterworlds?



Apparently you needn't bother to check any links that prove you wrong since your knowledge of Judaism is equal to your knowledge of Christianity.



And yes, lope screwed up all the quotes, not me :)




Far be it from you, then, to fix them as you go when you can just indulge in feigned and glorious righteous indignation instead.


May 3, 2012 -- 9:05PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


lol at least she IS a lady.




Surely you didn't think it unpredictable that your idea of ladies would be mindless sycophants.





No, there is no moving on, and yes I can answer, as I, unlike you am HONEST:  The bible offers NO ANSWERS to life, including starting points.  Christianity is a religion about death... most of you worship a depiction of a dead guy for pity's sake .... kinda sick if you step outside and have a looksee.  But if you think only your points matter-then again, your delusion precludes you from dialog.  You answer that question, THEN we can "move on"-that's how equal dialogs work.  Your bloated dictatorship is wholly rejected sweetie.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 5:03AM #193
Ebon
Posts: 10,122

May 3, 2012 -- 8:51AM, Adelphe wrote:

Ol' Hitler said, "Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."


Funny...now where have I heard that same sentiment recently?



The Austrian psychopath also made many comments supportive of Christianity. In fact, he said so many contradictory things that we really have no idea what, if anything, he actually believed.

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 6:58AM #194
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

May 3, 2012 -- 11:59PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


So you have no answer.  "we must trust" is not an answer, but a simple calmness accepting the lack of one.  That however, is not what I asked for.


As such, until you give a respectful answer (ie don't PRETEND to answer my question, if you don't know, then say "I don't know"-keep it respectful), I'll respond in kind to yours:


Sure, in every way, everything that happens.  (which is actually better-as it's honest, but I'm ignoring the nature of your question, so it's about as respectful...)




So you don't have an answer or an explanation about this "justice" that you believe in? Fair enough. 


Arguments can be made that this world doesn't matter even if there is no other one. If there is no kind of afterlife, no means in which consciousness survives in any way after physical death, then there is no possibility of experiencing regret or satisfaction regarding one's life: the one who makes the most of his life is just as dead as the one who wastes his brief time living, and the one gains nothing and the other loses nothing and both no longer exist so the loser suffers no pain for having missed out. 

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 8:56AM #195
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

May 3, 2012 -- 11:40PM, nieciedo wrote:


Adelphe,


Thanks for sticking up for me. We clashed a lot in earlier days, but I was lost in an erroneous spiritual path then and didn't know any better. I always admired you, though, especially your ability to cut through bullsh*t.




I never considered you "lost in an erroneous spiritual path" at all (and, personally, I love hearing about the circuitous paths people took which brought them to Christianity.)  In fact, I admired your ability to defend that path (and very articulately--you were and are always a true pleasure to read) and some of your remarkable insights.


Whatever path you took, btw, resulted in an advanced level of patience and grace over my own so I best leave you to...His (Fraudulent) Gasbag.  Wink

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 8:59AM #196
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

May 4, 2012 -- 5:03AM, Ebon wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 8:51AM, Adelphe wrote:

Ol' Hitler said, "Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."


Funny...now where have I heard that same sentiment recently?



The Austrian psychopath also made many comments supportive of Christianity. In fact, he said so many contradictory things that we really have no idea what, if anything, he actually believed.




Yes, I know.  In true psychopath style, as you observe.  We're left with observing--as Jesus advised--his fruit...

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 10:09AM #197
lope
Posts: 10,706

May 3, 2012 -- 7:31PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


One thing is for sure folks... with christians such as this, there is no question that the christian heaven is a place to avoid, real or false, assuming it is packed with such superior folks.  





Smart choice--always chose oblivion over life.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 10:22AM #198
lope
Posts: 10,706

May 3, 2012 -- 4:08PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 3:16PM, lope wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 1:36PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 12:23PM, lope wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 12:11PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 9:07AM, lope wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 6:08PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 5:08PM, lope wrote:

May 2, 2012 -- 4:21PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 2:53PM, lope wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 1:26PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 11:19AM, lope wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 9:43AM, Paladinsf wrote:

May 2, 2012 -- 8:02AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


Bob the lunatic, I have no idea what you are on about.


I am a Christian, I never heard such rot.  


Please do not speak for me.


Speak for yourself alone.




Oh you've heard it. Or at least could have heard it 6 times a week and twice on Sunday. It is foundational to your myth. This life is merely test, an opportunity to demonstrate your love and devotion to god. An opportunity to be "saved" from what you so richly deserve, an eternity of hell fire.


And YOU have read it, right here, on this forum, as recently as last month.


And you damn well know you have.


It is hard to determine which is worse on your part, you denial of the facts of your myth or your denial of knowing it IS a fact.




What is worse is the warped view of all Christians being as you protray them.  That is your myth and you worship it faithfully.




Yet you just proved it true with your "a better life" comment.  You cannot have it both ways.  If christianity is about THIS WORLD, then no other world, no afterlife, is necessary.  But we all know that christianity says not only is it necessary... but that it is the TRUE goal-this OTHER world.  


The fact that it bothers a few to hear it does indicate there is a little reason left-you are right, sounds pretty crippling for this world to focus on the next, doesn't it.  It's not my theory-I reject it completely.  So don't get angry at me, consider how low of a teaching it is instead.  It is avoidance, it is escapism.  It is heroin, without the dopamine fix.  


A drug habit is more logical than faith in a pure land after death.





 Christianity is all about this world and if we do not love in this world we have no hope of any existence in the next.  Christians lay up treasures in heaven, by what they do in this world.  Jesus told us to not worry about tomorrow, concentrate on today.  You must have missed that.  Christians are commanded to love others in this world.  It is not avoidance to believe this life requires our being loving and kind to others.  It is not escapism, nor is it heroin or even illogical.  Your warped view of Christianity is simpy a warped view.  It is the hightest teaching every devised or taught by man.  It is warped to the extreme to see it as a low teaching.




A blathery disagreement is not a rebuttal.  Again, if it's about this world, then it would not claim to offer a pure land after death, PERIOD.  No getting around that, and from that follows the truth of my other comments, arguments, including cowardice and escapism-they are inherent IF a teaching offers a "better life" after death by the very nature of that offering.





Again, believing in a destiny after this life does not mean we ignore or discount this life to nothing.  It is everything, because if we do not love in this life we do not have a destiny after this life.  And from that follows the incorrectness of your comments, and arguments, including cowardice and escapism.  Believing in the possibility for a better life is nothing more than recongizing this life is not perfect and we do not have justice in this life.  That is reality weather there is a life after this one or not.




Good, then you agree there is no afterlife-which allows you to focus your energies on this one.   As, it is obvious it cannot be both.  One or the other, I don't care which, but logic won't allow "We focus on this world" AND "our ultimate goal is after death".  No way to combine the two, they are mutually exclusive.


BTW Lope, don't you feel a bit nervy saying "We" when it appears no christian agrees with you very often.... who exactly is the "we"?





The reality is many Christians agree with what I believe.  No, living a loving life and hoping for an eternal existence is not mutually exclusive.  It is obvious it can be both.




Moving the cheese doesn't change the point.  This world is defiled, that limits how you can see it as a christian-which in turn limits how you can approach it.  




The world is what it is, neither defiled or undefiled.  Man is impefect but capable of loving others and many do.  I am not moving any cheese.




If this world is not defiled, then you don't need another world elsewhere.   Consistency is a problem for you I see.





This world is temporary.  We die and the good suffer and die with the wicked.  It is not about consistency to want eternal life and justice.




I understand the thinking, but that doesn't solve the inconsistency problem, since it was avoided, it remains.


And as far as eternal life... yes, if you seek eternal life elsewhere-then this world is secondary.  And as far as justice goes, "christian justice" is such a ridiculous concept that it begins far outside the realm of logic.  For example:  This concept that jesus, with a few hours of suffering can pay for countless sins?  Logical? No.  Justice? Hardly.  Cowardly for those who wish to defer their responsibility by claiming jesus paid?  Absolutely.


No gods are necessary for justice, justice is, just like gravity.  And justice is true and objective-not based upon some inconsistent book.  Justice determines why one man is born here, and another there, with differing circumstances.  Or you can take the christian route on that question and offer no answers... as usual.  To avoid thinking, there is no question christianity is the best solution.  For living?  Certainly not lol.





The above is unreasonable jiberish--as far as I can tell, not one clear thought there.  I understand the theme.  Let's bash people who believe we exist for the purpose of becoming loving and kind, because they only think about heaven and not this world.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 12:48PM #199
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

May 4, 2012 -- 10:09AM, lope wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 7:31PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


One thing is for sure folks... with christians such as this, there is no question that the christian heaven is a place to avoid, real or false, assuming it is packed with such superior folks.  





Smart choice--always chose oblivion over life.




No, the correct statement is:  "Always choose equality over tyranny."

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 12:51PM #200
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

May 4, 2012 -- 12:48PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


No, the correct statement is:  "Always choose equality over tyranny."





Why? On what basis do you assume people are "equal," and why is "tyranny" less preferable?


Is this derived from your eternal and absolute notion of justice that is somehow manifest in nature and life? If so, how?

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 20 of 25  •  Prev 1 ... 18 19 20 21 22 ... 25 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook