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3 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 8:33PM #181
Adelphe
Posts: 28,744

May 3, 2012 -- 7:28PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


It's everywhere and again, a law of life.  And again, the issue of different starting points must be addressed by christianity: Why is one born here with circumstances X, yet another with Y.  Based on what sense of christian justice?  Do tell. 



"Why is one born here with circumstances X, yet another with Y.  Based on what sense of christian justice? "??  What kind of "former Christian" reasoning is that?


And "Justice determines why one man is born here, and another there, with differing circumstances", you claim.  So this baby got just exactly what he so justly deserved, didn't he Bob_the_Lunatic?


May 3, 2012 -- 6:32PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


No rebuttal I see, that's fine, then my point stands.  Or can you offer some quotes and are just too superior to share?



Pardon, but you made the claim--to nieciedo who I happen to know is exceedingly theologically informed on Judaism having practiced it--that "most Jews would disagree" so you should support it.  You're apparently not only an expert in Christian thought but Judaism as well.  How'd your very expert self miss this?


Lastly, thank you for demonstrating that "christian humility" I spoke of.  Note the superiority.  Note the lack of learning from others.  Note the closed mind and blind nature.  Precisely as I stated previously:  "Without humility, there is no growth."  You explained it with demonstration much better than I could have via description.




What sort of complete and total non-sequitur is that?   Is this the sort of "logic" we should expect from any "Nichiren Buddhist" along with the above "justice"?


Need I remind you that not only did you accuse lope of "screwing it all up" "as he can't quote properly"--and nieciedo for "using your font"--it is you who are ignorant of the quote function. 


I simply explained that no one's out to get you Bob_the_Lunatic--and why you were seeing others' quotes in green.  No one "used" "your" "font and reversed" any "intention." 


Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 8:38PM #182
Adelphe
Posts: 28,744

May 3, 2012 -- 7:36PM, mainecaptain wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 7:31PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


One thing is for sure folks... with christians such as this, there is no question that the christian heaven is a place to avoid, real or false, assuming it is packed with such superior folks.  




Could not agree with you more.




Frankly, cat-lady, you have never demonstrated having a single original thought in your head so it's both unsurprising and surpassingly doubtful you have any idea whatsoever what you "agree with" (other than, of course, seizing every last opportunity to trash Christians and Christianity.  (And no, you're "some of my best friends are Christians" schlock isn't in the least convincing nor does it mitigate it.)

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 9:04PM #183
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

May 3, 2012 -- 8:33PM, Adelphe wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 7:28PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


It's everywhere and again, a law of life.  And again, the issue of different starting points must be addressed by christianity: Why is one born here with circumstances X, yet another with Y.  Based on what sense of christian justice?  Do tell. 



"Why is one born here with circumstances X, yet another with Y.  Based on what sense of christian justice? "??  What kind of "former Christian" reasoning is that?


And "Justice determines why one man is born here, and another there, with differing circumstances", you claim.  So this baby got just exactly what he so justly deserved, didn't he Bob_the_Lunatic?


May 3, 2012 -- 6:32PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


No rebuttal I see, that's fine, then my point stands.  Or can you offer some quotes and are just too superior to share?



Pardon, but you made the claim--to nieciedo who I happen to know is exceedingly theologically informed on Judaism having practiced it--that "most Jews would disagree" so you should support it.  You're apparently not only an expert in Christian thought but Judaism as well.  How'd your very expert self miss this?


Lastly, thank you for demonstrating that "christian humility" I spoke of.  Note the superiority.  Note the lack of learning from others.  Note the closed mind and blind nature.  Precisely as I stated previously:  "Without humility, there is no growth."  You explained it with demonstration much better than I could have via description.




What sort of complete and total non-sequitur is that?   Is this the sort of "logic" we should expect from any "Nichiren Buddhist" along with the above "justice"?


Need I remind you that not only did you accuse lope of "screwing it all up" "as he can't quote properly"--and nieciedo for "using your font"--it is you who are ignorant of the quote function. 


I simply explained that no one's out to get you Bob_the_Lunatic--and why you were seeing others' quotes in green.  No one "used" "your" "font and reversed" any "intention." 





"deserved" is a lowly christian term, not part of my theology.  So do you have an explanation from the bible for the starting points or not?


Still no quotes from the Torah to prove me wrong... even though you superiorily rolled your eyes at my point that Jews don't care about or think about afterworlds?


And yes, lope screwed up all the quotes, not me :)

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3 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 9:05PM #184
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

May 3, 2012 -- 8:38PM, Adelphe wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 7:36PM, mainecaptain wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 7:31PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


One thing is for sure folks... with christians such as this, there is no question that the christian heaven is a place to avoid, real or false, assuming it is packed with such superior folks.  




Could not agree with you more.




Frankly, cat-lady, you have never demonstrated having a single original thought in your head so it's both unsurprising and surpassingly doubtful you have any idea whatsoever what you "agree with" (other than, of course, seizing every last opportunity to trash Christians and Christianity.  (And no, you're "some of my best friends are Christians" schlock isn't in the least convincing nor does it mitigate it.)




lol at least she IS a lady.

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3 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 9:12PM #185
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,790

May 3, 2012 -- 9:05PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:



lol at least she IS a lady.




Thank you kind Sir. Smile

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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3 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 10:24PM #186
Adelphe
Posts: 28,744

May 3, 2012 -- 9:04PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


"deserved" is a lowly christian term, not part of my theology.  So do you have an explanation from the bible for the starting points or not?



I'm sure you can answer that question yourself as "a former Christian." 


So moving on, you claimed that "Justice determines why one man is born here, and another there, with differing circumstances" and we want to know how "justice" "determined" that baby should be born in those circumstances.



Still no quotes from the Torah to prove me wrong... even though you superiorily rolled your eyes at my point that Jews don't care about or think about afterworlds?



Apparently you needn't bother to check any links that prove you wrong since your knowledge of Judaism is equal to your knowledge of Christianity.



And yes, lope screwed up all the quotes, not me :)




Far be it from you, then, to fix them as you go when you can just indulge in feigned and glorious righteous indignation instead.


May 3, 2012 -- 9:05PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


lol at least she IS a lady.




Surely you didn't think it unpredictable that your idea of ladies would be mindless sycophants.


Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 11:25PM #187
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

May 3, 2012 -- 6:32PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


Most Jews would disagree and argue that Judaism and the Torah really don't talk about a world to come, but rather only address THIS WORLD.  Please show me a few references of the world to come according to the Torah?



As I said, the emphasis of the Jewish religion is on living life in this world, but Jewish tradition maintains that there is/will be a World-to-Come. The Rabbis discuss it in numerous places in the Talmud, and references to it pepper the traditional liturgy. It is an article of faith for Orthodox Jews.


And the inconsistency has been made clear:  If the goal is some other world, one cannot give THIS world full attention, it must be secondary.   I didn't say one could not improve their life.  The chained elephant still smiles from time to time-but he does in fact remain chained and unable to move freely.  Don't add extra points and claim they are from my mouth, CERTAINLY prior to addressing my obvious and stated points!



You ignore my points. I agreed with you that if one's goal is some other world then this world is seconday. What I have tried to bring to your attention is that this is not a necessary or central element of living a Christian life.


More Judaism??  Please explain what Judaism has to do with my arguments?  I question the ability to connect Judaism and Christianity via doctrine lol, but there is no question it is completely irrelevant to this discussion.  If you are a Jew and a Christian sympathizer, that's super-but not my problem nor relevant to the discussion.  Please stick to christianity.  There is no question Judaism addresses THIS world in my mind, and I would not make the same arguments against Judaism that I've made here.



First, I'm not a Jew. I used to be, but now I am a Christian (Beliefnet won't let me update my profile). I thought you were claiming that belief in an afterlife categorically meant that one cannot focus on life in this world; traditional Judaism refutes that.


Lastly-please don't hijack my font color if responding to me.  I wrote in green as Lope can't quote properly and screws it all up-green allows me, him/her, and all others to see who is saying what, yet-you used my font and reversed the intention.  So if I missed a point of yours, regardless of you ignoring mine and inventing additional ones which were not, I'm happy to address yours, but not if you bury it in MY sea of green :)




Sorry. It was an HTML problem. But you still ignore or dismiss my points, so I feel like I'm talking to myself :(

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3 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 11:34PM #188
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

May 3, 2012 -- 7:28PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


It's everywhere and again, a law of life.



This doesn't mean anything. Justice is a law of life? Really? In what way? Please explain, and provide an example because this is not clear at all.


And again, the issue of different starting points must be addressed by christianity: Why is one born here with circumstances X, yet another with Y.  Based on what sense of christian justice?  Do tell. 



One is born into the circumstances one is because of the circumstances of the two people who have sex to produce one. Christian justice is to work so that each person has the opportunity to use whatever has been given to him for the betterment of himself and the world, and we trust that there is a higher force at work behind this that all acts of justice draw from and participate in and that all injustice will ultimately answer to. History is a work in progress.




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3 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 11:40PM #189
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

Adelphe,


Thanks for sticking up for me. We clashed a lot in earlier days, but I was lost in an erroneous spiritual path then and didn't know any better. I always admired you, though, especially your ability to cut through bullsh*t.

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3 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 11:59PM #190
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

May 3, 2012 -- 11:34PM, nieciedo wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 7:28PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


It's everywhere and again, a law of life.



This doesn't mean anything. Justice is a law of life? Really? In what way? Please explain, and provide an example because this is not clear at all.


And again, the issue of different starting points must be addressed by christianity: Why is one born here with circumstances X, yet another with Y.  Based on what sense of christian justice?  Do tell. 



One is born into the circumstances one is because of the circumstances of the two people who have sex to produce one. Christian justice is to work so that each person has the opportunity to use whatever has been given to him for the betterment of himself and the world, and we trust that there is a higher force at work behind this that all acts of justice draw from and participate in and that all injustice will ultimately answer to. History is a work in progress.







So you have no answer.  "we must trust" is not an answer, but a simple calmness accepting the lack of one.  That however, is not what I asked for.


As such, until you give a respectful answer (ie don't PRETEND to answer my question, if you don't know, then say "I don't know"-keep it respectful), I'll respond in kind to yours:


Sure, in every way, everything that happens.  (which is actually better-as it's honest, but I'm ignoring the nature of your question, so it's about as respectful...)

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