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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 2:49PM #171
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

May 3, 2012 -- 1:39PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:

 
That's fine, except if it can begin here and now, it would not need to transcend this world.  I have no problem with ideas in the soul/spirit/depths of human/whatever.  I only have a problem with the inconsistency of saying one needs another world, yet can have the same things in this one-that makes no sense.



I think that the talk of "another world" or "a better life" is what happens when metaphors are used to describe something that can't really be understood, and those metaphors are taken literally and then get garbled. It's not wrong, exactly, because it's a reflection through however dark a glass, but it's not really correct either.


Jesus isn't recorded as talking all that much about a "pure land after death" or "a better life." Rather, he is depicted as focusing much more on the "Kingdom of God." The Kingdom of God is something that is within us, but bigger than us, something that we can "inherit" or that can "come upon" us, and altered way of existing and interacting with creation, one that transcends the limitations of the individual and of time and space.


Scattered parts recognizing that they are really a Whole.


Whatever.



If one thinks purity exists in the land, then one cannot take responsibility for one's own life and limits what they can achieve-as they rely on something external for change.





I don't understand what this means about "purity in the land."


As for taking responsibility for one's life and limiting what one can achieve, the amount of responsibility a person can take and the amount that anyone can achieve is severely limited by their class and their wealth and the opportunities that both afford them.

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 3:16PM #172
lope
Posts: 11,752

May 3, 2012 -- 1:36PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 12:23PM, lope wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 12:11PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 9:07AM, lope wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 6:08PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 5:08PM, lope wrote:

May 2, 2012 -- 4:21PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 2:53PM, lope wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 1:26PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 11:19AM, lope wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 9:43AM, Paladinsf wrote:

May 2, 2012 -- 8:02AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


Bob the lunatic, I have no idea what you are on about.


I am a Christian, I never heard such rot.  


Please do not speak for me.


Speak for yourself alone.




Oh you've heard it. Or at least could have heard it 6 times a week and twice on Sunday. It is foundational to your myth. This life is merely test, an opportunity to demonstrate your love and devotion to god. An opportunity to be "saved" from what you so richly deserve, an eternity of hell fire.


And YOU have read it, right here, on this forum, as recently as last month.


And you damn well know you have.


It is hard to determine which is worse on your part, you denial of the facts of your myth or your denial of knowing it IS a fact.




What is worse is the warped view of all Christians being as you protray them.  That is your myth and you worship it faithfully.




Yet you just proved it true with your "a better life" comment.  You cannot have it both ways.  If christianity is about THIS WORLD, then no other world, no afterlife, is necessary.  But we all know that christianity says not only is it necessary... but that it is the TRUE goal-this OTHER world.  


The fact that it bothers a few to hear it does indicate there is a little reason left-you are right, sounds pretty crippling for this world to focus on the next, doesn't it.  It's not my theory-I reject it completely.  So don't get angry at me, consider how low of a teaching it is instead.  It is avoidance, it is escapism.  It is heroin, without the dopamine fix.  


A drug habit is more logical than faith in a pure land after death.





 Christianity is all about this world and if we do not love in this world we have no hope of any existence in the next.  Christians lay up treasures in heaven, by what they do in this world.  Jesus told us to not worry about tomorrow, concentrate on today.  You must have missed that.  Christians are commanded to love others in this world.  It is not avoidance to believe this life requires our being loving and kind to others.  It is not escapism, nor is it heroin or even illogical.  Your warped view of Christianity is simpy a warped view.  It is the hightest teaching every devised or taught by man.  It is warped to the extreme to see it as a low teaching.




A blathery disagreement is not a rebuttal.  Again, if it's about this world, then it would not claim to offer a pure land after death, PERIOD.  No getting around that, and from that follows the truth of my other comments, arguments, including cowardice and escapism-they are inherent IF a teaching offers a "better life" after death by the very nature of that offering.





Again, believing in a destiny after this life does not mean we ignore or discount this life to nothing.  It is everything, because if we do not love in this life we do not have a destiny after this life.  And from that follows the incorrectness of your comments, and arguments, including cowardice and escapism.  Believing in the possibility for a better life is nothing more than recongizing this life is not perfect and we do not have justice in this life.  That is reality weather there is a life after this one or not.




Good, then you agree there is no afterlife-which allows you to focus your energies on this one.   As, it is obvious it cannot be both.  One or the other, I don't care which, but logic won't allow "We focus on this world" AND "our ultimate goal is after death".  No way to combine the two, they are mutually exclusive.


BTW Lope, don't you feel a bit nervy saying "We" when it appears no christian agrees with you very often.... who exactly is the "we"?





The reality is many Christians agree with what I believe.  No, living a loving life and hoping for an eternal existence is not mutually exclusive.  It is obvious it can be both.




Moving the cheese doesn't change the point.  This world is defiled, that limits how you can see it as a christian-which in turn limits how you can approach it.  




The world is what it is, neither defiled or undefiled.  Man is impefect but capable of loving others and many do.  I am not moving any cheese.




If this world is not defiled, then you don't need another world elsewhere.   Consistency is a problem for you I see.





This world is temporary.  We die and the good suffer and die with the wicked.  It is not about consistency to want eternal life and justice.

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 4:08PM #173
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

May 3, 2012 -- 3:16PM, lope wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 1:36PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 12:23PM, lope wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 12:11PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 9:07AM, lope wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 6:08PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 5:08PM, lope wrote:

May 2, 2012 -- 4:21PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 2:53PM, lope wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 1:26PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 11:19AM, lope wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 9:43AM, Paladinsf wrote:

May 2, 2012 -- 8:02AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


Bob the lunatic, I have no idea what you are on about.


I am a Christian, I never heard such rot.  


Please do not speak for me.


Speak for yourself alone.




Oh you've heard it. Or at least could have heard it 6 times a week and twice on Sunday. It is foundational to your myth. This life is merely test, an opportunity to demonstrate your love and devotion to god. An opportunity to be "saved" from what you so richly deserve, an eternity of hell fire.


And YOU have read it, right here, on this forum, as recently as last month.


And you damn well know you have.


It is hard to determine which is worse on your part, you denial of the facts of your myth or your denial of knowing it IS a fact.




What is worse is the warped view of all Christians being as you protray them.  That is your myth and you worship it faithfully.




Yet you just proved it true with your "a better life" comment.  You cannot have it both ways.  If christianity is about THIS WORLD, then no other world, no afterlife, is necessary.  But we all know that christianity says not only is it necessary... but that it is the TRUE goal-this OTHER world.  


The fact that it bothers a few to hear it does indicate there is a little reason left-you are right, sounds pretty crippling for this world to focus on the next, doesn't it.  It's not my theory-I reject it completely.  So don't get angry at me, consider how low of a teaching it is instead.  It is avoidance, it is escapism.  It is heroin, without the dopamine fix.  


A drug habit is more logical than faith in a pure land after death.





 Christianity is all about this world and if we do not love in this world we have no hope of any existence in the next.  Christians lay up treasures in heaven, by what they do in this world.  Jesus told us to not worry about tomorrow, concentrate on today.  You must have missed that.  Christians are commanded to love others in this world.  It is not avoidance to believe this life requires our being loving and kind to others.  It is not escapism, nor is it heroin or even illogical.  Your warped view of Christianity is simpy a warped view.  It is the hightest teaching every devised or taught by man.  It is warped to the extreme to see it as a low teaching.




A blathery disagreement is not a rebuttal.  Again, if it's about this world, then it would not claim to offer a pure land after death, PERIOD.  No getting around that, and from that follows the truth of my other comments, arguments, including cowardice and escapism-they are inherent IF a teaching offers a "better life" after death by the very nature of that offering.





Again, believing in a destiny after this life does not mean we ignore or discount this life to nothing.  It is everything, because if we do not love in this life we do not have a destiny after this life.  And from that follows the incorrectness of your comments, and arguments, including cowardice and escapism.  Believing in the possibility for a better life is nothing more than recongizing this life is not perfect and we do not have justice in this life.  That is reality weather there is a life after this one or not.




Good, then you agree there is no afterlife-which allows you to focus your energies on this one.   As, it is obvious it cannot be both.  One or the other, I don't care which, but logic won't allow "We focus on this world" AND "our ultimate goal is after death".  No way to combine the two, they are mutually exclusive.


BTW Lope, don't you feel a bit nervy saying "We" when it appears no christian agrees with you very often.... who exactly is the "we"?





The reality is many Christians agree with what I believe.  No, living a loving life and hoping for an eternal existence is not mutually exclusive.  It is obvious it can be both.




Moving the cheese doesn't change the point.  This world is defiled, that limits how you can see it as a christian-which in turn limits how you can approach it.  




The world is what it is, neither defiled or undefiled.  Man is impefect but capable of loving others and many do.  I am not moving any cheese.




If this world is not defiled, then you don't need another world elsewhere.   Consistency is a problem for you I see.





This world is temporary.  We die and the good suffer and die with the wicked.  It is not about consistency to want eternal life and justice.




I understand the thinking, but that doesn't solve the inconsistency problem, since it was avoided, it remains.


And as far as eternal life... yes, if you seek eternal life elsewhere-then this world is secondary.  And as far as justice goes, "christian justice" is such a ridiculous concept that it begins far outside the realm of logic.  For example:  This concept that jesus, with a few hours of suffering can pay for countless sins?  Logical? No.  Justice? Hardly.  Cowardly for those who wish to defer their responsibility by claiming jesus paid?  Absolutely.


No gods are necessary for justice, justice is, just like gravity.  And justice is true and objective-not based upon some inconsistent book.  Justice determines why one man is born here, and another there, with differing circumstances.  Or you can take the christian route on that question and offer no answers... as usual.  To avoid thinking, there is no question christianity is the best solution.  For living?  Certainly not lol.

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 5:32PM #174
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

May 3, 2012 -- 4:08PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


I understand the thinking, but that doesn't solve the inconsistency problem, since it was avoided, it remains.


And as far as eternal life...




There isn't really a consistency problem. Judaism, for example, does not consider the world to be "defiled" and yet in its traditional variations teaches about a Word-to-Come (which is either an afterlife, a new creation, or both).


yes, if you seek eternal life elsewhere-then this world is secondary.



That is not necessarily so. One can maintain hope that death is merely a transformation of life and not an end without deeming the life one has been given here and now to be unimportant.


And as far as justice goes, "christian justice" is such a ridiculous concept that it begins far outside the realm of logic.  For example:  This concept that jesus, with a few hours of suffering can pay for countless sins?  Logical? No.  Justice? Hardly.  Cowardly for those who wish to defer their responsibility by claiming jesus paid?  Absolutely.



The satisfaction model is just one of the possible ways of understanding the atonement in Christian theology, and it's not necessarily the only one or the best one. In the satisfaction model, however, Jesus's passion and death are believed to make atonement for all the sins of the world because he was God (and therefore participated in the infinite and omnipotent divine nature) and purely innocent and went to his death in willful sacrifice.


That metaphor doesn't work all that well for me. I'm partial to tying this to the Old Testament principle that sin defiles the land and extreme sin, such as murder, defiles the land extremely. In various places in the Torah, we are told that the blood of the murderer, for example - justly tried and convicted - removes the stain of the blood he has shed. If it was accidental manslaughter, the killer had to stay in one of the cities of refuse until the current high priest died, his death having a sacramental effect of removing the contamination of the accidental killer's action. If a dead body were found and no murderer could be brought to justice, then a ritual involcing the two nearest towns killing a cow was imployed. If the death of a murderer cleansed the land of the contamination of his sin, and the death of a high priest could remove the contamination of manslaughter, then the voluntary self-sacrifice of an innocent should have an even greater effect.


Whatever.


No gods are necessary for justice, justice is, just like gravity.  And justice is true and objective-not based upon some inconsistent book.  Justice determines why one man is born here, and another there, with differing circumstances.



Where is this metaphysical and eternal "justice" of which you speak? How can it be determined and on what principles is it based?


Or you can take the christian route on that question and offer no answers... as usual.  To avoid thinking, there is no question christianity is the best solution.  For living?  Certainly not lol.




I don't know: there have been quite a number of great philosophers, academics, and social justice activists over the years who have been Christians, and many people find that their Christian faith improves their life. I can't prove that they are wrong, so I wonder how you can?

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 6:32PM #175
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

May 3, 2012 -- 5:32PM, nieciedo wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 4:08PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


I understand the thinking, but that doesn't solve the inconsistency problem, since it was avoided, it remains.


And as far as eternal life...




There isn't really a consistency problem. Judaism, for example, does not consider the world to be "defiled" and yet in its traditional variations teaches about a Word-to-Come (which is either an afterlife, a new creation, or both).


yes, if you seek eternal life elsewhere-then this world is secondary.



That is not necessarily so. One can maintain hope that death is merely a transformation of life and not an end without deeming the life one has been given here and now to be unimportant.


And as far as justice goes, "christian justice" is such a ridiculous concept that it begins far outside the realm of logic.  For example:  This concept that jesus, with a few hours of suffering can pay for countless sins?  Logical? No.  Justice? Hardly.  Cowardly for those who wish to defer their responsibility by claiming jesus paid?  Absolutely.



The satisfaction model is just one of the possible ways of understanding the atonement in Christian theology, and it's not necessarily the only one or the best one. In the satisfaction model, however, Jesus's passion and death are believed to make atonement for all the sins of the world because he was God (and therefore participated in the infinite and omnipotent divine nature) and purely innocent and went to his death in willful sacrifice.


That metaphor doesn't work all that well for me. I'm partial to tying this to the Old Testament principle that sin defiles the land and extreme sin, such as murder, defiles the land extremely. In various places in the Torah, we are told that the blood of the murderer, for example - justly tried and convicted - removes the stain of the blood he has shed. If it was accidental manslaughter, the killer had to stay in one of the cities of refuse until the current high priest died, his death having a sacramental effect of removing the contamination of the accidental killer's action. If a dead body were found and no murderer could be brought to justice, then a ritual involcing the two nearest towns killing a cow was imployed. If the death of a murderer cleansed the land of the contamination of his sin, and the death of a high priest could remove the contamination of manslaughter, then the voluntary self-sacrifice of an innocent should have an even greater effect.


Whatever.


No gods are necessary for justice, justice is, just like gravity.  And justice is true and objective-not based upon some inconsistent book.  Justice determines why one man is born here, and another there, with differing circumstances.



Where is this metaphysical and eternal "justice" of which you speak? How can it be determined and on what principles is it based?


Or you can take the christian route on that question and offer no answers... as usual.  To avoid thinking, there is no question christianity is the best solution.  For living?  Certainly not lol.




I don't know: there have been quite a number of great philosophers, academics, and social justice activists over the years who have been Christians, and many people find that their Christian faith improves their life. I can't prove that they are wrong, so I wonder how you can?




Most Jews would disagree and argue that Judaism and the Torah really don't talk about a world to come, but rather only address THIS WORLD.  Please show me a few references of the world to come according to the Torah?



And the inconsistency has been made clear:  If the goal is some other world, one cannot give THIS world full attention, it must be secondary.   I didn't say one could not improve their life.  The chained elephant still smiles from time to time-but he does in fact remain chained and unable to move freely.  Don't add extra points and claim they are from my mouth, CERTAINLY prior to addressing my obvious and stated points! 


More Judaism??  Please explain what Judaism has to do with my arguments?  I question the ability to connect Judaism and Christianity via doctrine lol, but there is no question it is completely irrelevant to this discussion.  If you are a Jew and a Christian sympathizer, that's super-but not my problem nor relevant to the discussion.  Please stick to christianity.  There is no question Judaism addresses THIS world in my mind, and I would not make the same arguments against Judaism that I've made here.


Lastly-please don't hijack my font color if responding to me.  I wrote in green as Lope can't quote properly and screws it all up-green allows me, him/her, and all others to see who is saying what, yet-you used my font and reversed the intention.  So if I missed a point of yours, regardless of you ignoring mine and inventing additional ones which were not, I'm happy to address yours, but not if you bury it in MY sea of green :)

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 6:42PM #176
Adelphe
Posts: 28,736

May 3, 2012 -- 5:32PM, nieciedo wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 4:08PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


No gods are necessary for justice, justice is, just like gravity.  And justice is true and objective-not based upon some inconsistent book.  Justice determines why one man is born here, and another there, with differing circumstances.



Where is this metaphysical and eternal "justice" of which you speak? How can it be determined and on what principles is it based?



Yes, where is it and on what is it based?  Could you, btl, elaborate?



May 3, 2012 -- 6:32PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


Most Jews would disagree and argue that Judaism and the Torah really don't talk about a world to come, but rather only address THIS WORLD.  Please show me a few references of the world to come according to the Torah?



Oh dear...



Lastly-please don't hijack my font color if responding to me.  I wrote in green as Lope can't quote properly and screws it all up-green allows me, him/her, and all others to see who is saying what, yet-you used my font and reversed the intention.  So if I missed a point of yours, regardless of you ignoring mine and inventing additional ones which were not, I'm happy to address yours, but not if you bury it in MY sea of green :)




(Just as an aside, he's not--he's simply quoting your posts and because you use green, his font automatically comes out green in places.  You're asking him to make extra adjustments since you're not familiar with the quote function--I've little doubt he'll display his inherent grace and do so, but do know that it's extra steps on his part and, thus, an inconvenience for him.)

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 7:28PM #177
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

May 3, 2012 -- 6:42PM, Adelphe wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 5:32PM, nieciedo wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 4:08PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


No gods are necessary for justice, justice is, just like gravity.  And justice is true and objective-not based upon some inconsistent book.  Justice determines why one man is born here, and another there, with differing circumstances.



Where is this metaphysical and eternal "justice" of which you speak? How can it be determined and on what principles is it based?



Yes, where is it and on what is it based?  Could you, btl, elaborate?


It's everywhere and again, a law of life.  And again, the issue of different starting points must be addressed by christianity: Why is one born here with circumstances X, yet another with Y.  Based on what sense of christian justice?  Do tell.  



May 3, 2012 -- 6:32PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


Most Jews would disagree and argue that Judaism and the Torah really don't talk about a world to come, but rather only address THIS WORLD.  Please show me a few references of the world to come according to the Torah?



Oh dear...


No rebuttal I see, that's fine, then my point stands.  Or can you offer some quotes and are just too superior to share?



Lastly-please don't hijack my font color if responding to me.  I wrote in green as Lope can't quote properly and screws it all up-green allows me, him/her, and all others to see who is saying what, yet-you used my font and reversed the intention.  So if I missed a point of yours, regardless of you ignoring mine and inventing additional ones which were not, I'm happy to address yours, but not if you bury it in MY sea of green :)




(Just as an aside, he's not--he's simply quoting your posts and because you use green, his font automatically comes out green in places.  You're asking him to make extra adjustments since you're not familiar with the quote function--I've little doubt he'll display his inherent grace and do so, but do know that it's extra steps on his part and, thus, an inconvenience for him.)




Lastly, thank you for demonstrating that "christian humility" I spoke of.  Note the superiority.  Note the lack of learning from others.  Note the closed mind and blind nature.  Precisely as I stated previously:  "Without humility, there is no growth."  You explained it with demonstration much better than I could have via description.

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 7:31PM #178
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

One thing is for sure folks... with christians such as this, there is no question that the christian heaven is a place to avoid, real or false, assuming it is packed with such superior folks.  

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 7:36PM #179
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

May 3, 2012 -- 7:31PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


One thing is for sure folks... with christians such as this, there is no question that the christian heaven is a place to avoid, real or false, assuming it is packed with such superior folks.  




Could not agree with you more.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 8:07PM #180
jonny42
Posts: 6,733

May 3, 2012 -- 7:36PM, mainecaptain wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 7:31PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


One thing is for sure folks... with christians such as this, there is no question that the christian heaven is a place to avoid, real or false, assuming it is packed with such superior folks.  




Could not agree with you more.




"I'm too good to be around people who think they're too good to be around people."

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