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Switch to Forum Live View Do we have Jesus's words?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 6:58AM #1
Kwinters
Posts: 20,924

If you think that the gospels contain direct quotations from the historical Jesus, can you please make an evidence-based case as to why?

What texts are you citing?

What language are they in?

From what year?

How well does the Greek map on to terms used in Aramaic?1

How many variations on the text have been noted, and are any of them substantive?2

If there are substantive differences, what established criteria do you cite in determining which version is the authentic version and which is the aberration?

Please add any additional information beyond these preliminary questions to establish the evidence that the words attributed to Jesus in the gospels are accurate quotations from the historical person during his life.

 
1 e.g. In Aramaic, Mari was a respectful form of address, similar to Rabbi. In Greek this was at times translated as kyrios. While Mari expressed the relationship between Jesus and his disciples during his life, the Greek kyrios came to represent his lordship over the world. (Cullmann, 1959:202).

2 John Mill - Novum Testamentum 'Mill spent thirty years on this tome, seeing it through to publication just two weeks before his death. Using the third edition (1550) of Stephanus’s Greek New Testament as his base text, he produced an apparatus that gave the readings of 100 Greek manuscripts as well as those of several church fathers and versions. This apparatus revealed 30,000 variants among the witnesses...)

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 8:20AM #2
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

Apr 27, 2012 -- 6:58AM, Kwinters wrote:


If you think that the gospels contain direct quotations from the historical Jesus, can you please make an evidence-based case as to why?

What texts are you citing?

What language are they in?

From what year?

How well does the Greek map on to terms used in Aramaic?1

How many variations on the text have been noted, and are any of them substantive?2

If there are substantive differences, what established criteria do you cite in determining which version is the authentic version and which is the aberration?

Please add any additional information beyond these preliminary questions to establish the evidence that the words attributed to Jesus in the gospels are accurate quotations from the historical person during his life.

 
1 e.g. In Aramaic, Mari was a respectful form of address, similar to Rabbi. In Greek this was at times translated as kyrios. While Mari expressed the relationship between Jesus and his disciples during his life, the Greek kyrios came to represent his lordship over the world. (Cullmann, 1959:202).

2 John Mill - Novum Testamentum 'Mill spent thirty years on this tome, seeing it through to publication just two weeks before his death. Using the third edition (1550) of Stephanus’s Greek New Testament as his base text, he produced an apparatus that gave the readings of 100 Greek manuscripts as well as those of several church fathers and versions. This apparatus revealed 30,000 variants among the witnesses...)




Christians use an established canon.


We don't ask all of those questions re the established canon because all of that analysis has already been (and continues to be) done (which makes it...canon.)


Probably the bigger question you have in mind is the criteria/how that canon was developed/established.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 8:32AM #3
Marcion
Posts: 2,883

What we have is second or third hand recollections plus more than a few false insertions.


Do you recall playing telegraph as a child - same thing.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 8:36AM #4
Kwinters
Posts: 20,924

Apr 27, 2012 -- 8:20AM, Adelphe wrote:


Christians use an established canon.


We don't ask all of those questions re the established canon because all of that analysis has already been (and continues to be) done (which makes it...canon.)




And can you cite specifically who did this analysis?  When? And what the criteria was?


Because I don't think you will be able to produce any specific names, any specific dates, and any specific criteria.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 8:43AM #5
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

Apr 27, 2012 -- 8:36AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 8:20AM, Adelphe wrote:


Christians use an established canon.


We don't ask all of those questions re the established canon because all of that analysis has already been (and continues to be) done (which makes it...canon.)




And can you cite specifically who did this analysis?  When? And what the criteria was?


Because I don't think you will be able to produce any specific names, any specific dates, and any specific criteria.




Sure, apart from what you can find on wiki, for example, or a basic Google search, I will try to dig up a more technical article I've used in the past.


btw, I find it odd you think there aren't any specifics.  You won't find, for example, "The Gospel of the Hebrews" in the canon.  What, do you think that the "criterion" for excluding it was that Christians "just didn't like it"?

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 8:46AM #6
Kwinters
Posts: 20,924

Apr 27, 2012 -- 8:43AM, Adelphe wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 8:36AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 8:20AM, Adelphe wrote:


Christians use an established canon.


We don't ask all of those questions re the established canon because all of that analysis has already been (and continues to be) done (which makes it...canon.)




And can you cite specifically who did this analysis?  When? And what the criteria was?


Because I don't think you will be able to produce any specific names, any specific dates, and any specific criteria.




Sure, apart from what you can find on wiki, for example, or a basic Google search, I will try to dig up a more technical article I've used in the past.




I look forward to your sourced response.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 8:51AM #7
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

Apr 27, 2012 -- 8:46AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 8:43AM, Adelphe wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 8:36AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 8:20AM, Adelphe wrote:


Christians use an established canon.


We don't ask all of those questions re the established canon because all of that analysis has already been (and continues to be) done (which makes it...canon.)




And can you cite specifically who did this analysis?  When? And what the criteria was?


Because I don't think you will be able to produce any specific names, any specific dates, and any specific criteria.




Sure, apart from what you can find on wiki, for example, or a basic Google search, I will try to dig up a more technical article I've used in the past.




I look forward to your sourced response.




(Will be after work so might take me a bit but) my pleasure.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 11:25AM #8
Kwinters
Posts: 20,924

"Muratorian Canon"


Summation of Books Contained in the Muratorian Canon


So the books listed in the Muratorian Canon are as follows:

  • Gospels: Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John
  • Acts
  • Letters of Paul to churches: Corinthias (2), Ephesians, Phlippians, Colossians, Galatians, Thessalonians (2), Romans
  • Letters of Paul to individuals: Philemon, Titus, Timothy (2)
  • Jude, John (2)
  • Wisdom of Solomon
  • Revelation of John
  • Revelation of Peter
  • Shepherd (or Pastor) of Hermas, good but not be read in church

This leaves out Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, and 3 John.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 12:21PM #9
dio
Posts: 4,646

For the record, here's what I am confident Jesus said ; believe in me, follow me, and the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


My criteria are gleanings from the Jesus seminar votes of authenticity.


We can't prove Jesus said too much. But I am sure though he said a lot more than was recorded in the Gospels.


Question: are the sayings of the resurrected Jesus authentic. What about Gnostic literiture, those are completely spiritually revealed. How can we know if they are authentic? Much of the Gospel of Philips are resurrection sayings and do you wonder about the Gosple of John's Jesus sayings? Could the I Am sayings be from the resurrected Jesus?  


How about the Book of Revelation, pretty scarry stuff, does that sound like Jesus? Which resurrected sayings do you believe in? The ones that continue teaching wisdom and knowledge or the ones that scare the hell out of you? The answer seems to be we believe in the resurrected sayings that scare the hell out of us.


I say believe what resonates as true for you.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 12:30PM #10
SecondSonOfDavid
Posts: 3,344

Apr 27, 2012 -- 12:21PM, dio wrote:


I say believe what resonates as true for you.




Ah.



So God must say and think what each human expects of him.



Thanks but no, I will serve God who is greater than I am.

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier.
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