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Switch to Forum Live View Do we have Jesus's words?
2 years ago  ::  May 11, 2012 - 10:44AM #111
Kwinters
Posts: 20,823

May 11, 2012 -- 9:37AM, Adelphe wrote:


May 11, 2012 -- 8:37AM, Kwinters wrote:


If he'd said the same thing in one gospels there may have been an argument for context. But these are three different gospels where he is presented as saying contradictory things.



To two different audiences. (Which you'd know if you checked the context.)


May 11, 2012 -- 8:37AM, Kwinters wrote:


So is this your 'earliest complete manuscript'?  And if it is, how do you explain all the things that are missing or different?




It's called "Textual Criticism."

May 11, 2012 -- 8:40AM, Kwinters wrote:


Go back and re-read the post.  Don't blame me if you missed the fact that it was not in the earlier versions and then appeared as a marginal note, and then was inserted into the body of the text.





How do you know the "earlier versions" are the best versions?





Right, so you have nothing of substance to offer I see.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 11, 2012 - 1:09PM #112
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

May 11, 2012 -- 9:44AM, Adelphe wrote:


May 11, 2012 -- 8:54AM, Kwinters wrote:



This is simply wrong. I have already produced a link to the findings and study that repudiates this erroneous assertion.



Where? 


Please cite the relevant portion and add your comments.



First, no one knows yet how many variations there are between all the documents yet, so I would like to know where your author gets the suspiciously rounded off number of 400,000.


'In The Text of the New TestamentKurt Aland and Barbara Aland compare the total number of variant-free verses, and the number of variants per page (excluding orthographic errors).'



As noted above,



Where?


there is a high degree of non-variant-free verses and since the issue is Jesus's words (and NOT doctrine), the more variance between copies the lower the likelihood that what has been written down were the actual words of Jesus.




Scholars universally consider this a virtue, not a vice—good news, not bad—because the condition causing the problem is the very condition providing the solution. The more manuscripts available for comparison, the more changes that will likely appear, but also the more raw material to use for comparison to fix the problem the variants pose.





May 11, 2012 -- 10:44AM, Kwinters wrote:


 


 




 


Well that answers that, then.

Moderated by Merope on May 11, 2012 - 01:18PM
Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 11, 2012 - 1:14PM #113
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

May 11, 2012 -- 9:37AM, Adelphe wrote:

How do you know the "earlier versions" are the best versions?




May 11, 2012 -- 10:44AM, Kwinters wrote:


 




That, too, apparently.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 11, 2012 - 1:22PM #114
Kwinters
Posts: 20,823

May 11, 2012 -- 9:44AM, Adelphe wrote:


May 11, 2012 -- 8:54AM, Kwinters wrote:



This is simply wrong. I have already produced a link to the findings and study that repudiates this erroneous assertion.



Where? 


Please cite the relevant portion and add your comments.



First, no one knows yet how many variations there are between all the documents yet, so I would like to know where your author gets the suspiciously rounded off number of 400,000.


'In The Text of the New TestamentKurt Aland and Barbara Aland compare the total number of variant-free verses, and the number of variants per page (excluding orthographic errors).'



As noted above,



Where?


there is a high degree of non-variant-free verses and since the issue is Jesus's words (and NOT doctrine), the more variance between copies the lower the likelihood that what has been written down were the actual words of Jesus.




Scholars universally consider this a virtue, not a vice—good news, not bad—because the condition causing the problem is the very condition providing the solution. The more manuscripts available for comparison, the more changes that will likely appear, but also the more raw material to use for comparison to fix the problem the variants pose.




You were praising Jewish precision in the preservation of texts just the other day and now you're praising variation?


So which is better? If we had 2000 different versions of the US Constitution, all with variations or one version of the Constitution without any variations?


Which would be the more reliable?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 11, 2012 - 1:26PM #115
Kwinters
Posts: 20,823

May 11, 2012 -- 9:37AM, Adelphe wrote:


May 11, 2012 -- 8:37AM, Kwinters wrote:


If he'd said the same thing in one gospels there may have been an argument for context. But these are three different gospels where he is presented as saying contradictory things.



To two different audiences. (Which you'd know if you checked the context.)





It is not about the context, and even that argument makes no sense whatsoever.  


If I say to one group of people, I will never eat meat, and then I say to another group of people, the only flesh I will ever eat is chicken, and to another group I say I eat every kind of meat, do I eat no meat, one kind of meat, or all kinds?


If he said I am not going to give a sign then he should have given no signs.  If he said, the only sign I am going to give is x then he should have only given that sign. If he said he would give lots of signs and then did lots of signs then he is a pathological liar.


The statements are mutually exclusive. Doing any one negates the other two.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 11, 2012 - 1:59PM #116
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

Apr 27, 2012 -- 6:58AM, Kwinters wrote:


If you think that the gospels contain direct quotations from the historical Jesus, can you please make an evidence-based case as to why?




Ooooh...here's a good place to use the new, sanctioned-as-an-acceptable-answer-personally-by-K when we don't want to justify any position but just want everyone else to do so...


"Sure. It is called Google. Get to know it."

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 11, 2012 - 4:30PM #117
Kwinters
Posts: 20,823

May 11, 2012 -- 1:59PM, Adelphe wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 6:58AM, Kwinters wrote:


If you think that the gospels contain direct quotations from the historical Jesus, can you please make an evidence-based case as to why?




Ooooh...here's a good place to use the new, sanctioned-as-an-acceptable-answer-personally-by-K when we don't want to justify any position but just want everyone else to do so...


"Sure. It is called Google. Get to know it."




Actually I gave you the source of the information, I am not going to read it for you and think it for you and figure it out for you.


It is a sign of weakness to ask questions and retreat when answers are given by simply asking more questions.


Now then, you were praising Jewish precision in the preservation of texts just the other day and now you're praising variation?


So which is better? If we had 2000 different versions of the US Constitution, all with variations or one version of the Constitution without any variations?


Which would be the more reliable?


Or are you going to avoid coming up with an answer the way you did when I asked you for the original version of 2 Cor?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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