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Switch to Forum Live View What is the difference between the Lord’s crucifixion and His sacrifice?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 8:34PM #21
Keyfer
Posts: 2,605

Apr 28, 2012 -- 11:39AM, Blü wrote:



To take one example, it doesn't matter to me one way or another whether the NT mentions or necessarily implies the Trinity or not.  But in fact it doesn't, so it's a curious thing to see certain Christians trying to retrofit the Trinity onto the NT.  I have no argument with their desire to believe in the Trinity.  My point is that to attribute the doctrine to the NT is simply false.


So with my historical approach, I respect the text more than they do.




How do you explain the mention of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, doesn't that imply a trinity to you? 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 8:45PM #22
Blü
Posts: 24,669

Keyfer


How do you explain the mention of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, doesn't that imply a trinity to you?


The Trinity is a very specific doctrine, which the Catholic Encyclopedia calls 'a mystery' (in English, 'a nonsense').  It says that there's a single God but God while still being single consists of three persons, the Father, the Son and the Ghost, and that these are all equal.  The small inferences in the NT that Jesus might be Yahweh's equal are heavily outweighed by the repeated denials - I listed nine of them, but there are more - directly attributed to Jesus in which he says unambiguously he's not Yahweh's equal, only Yahweh's agent.  He further repeatedly says he has no power or authority of his own but only the power and authority that Yahweh gives him.  And NOWHERE in the NT is it stated or necessarily implied that the Ghost is the equal of Jesus or Yahweh.


No surprise there when you consider the Trinity isn't invented until ~180 CE, and is adopted because it's convenient to the church politics of that era.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 8:53PM #23
Blü
Posts: 24,669

Ed


I think the Wiccan would know more about how to practice Wicca than I, an outsider, would.  Especially if all Wiccans polished their stones that way.


Christians and other believers are free to believe what pleases them.


But when they assert that this or that belief is supported by a text which doesn't in fact support it, then it's relevant to point this out.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 10:12PM #24
Keyfer
Posts: 2,605

Apr 29, 2012 -- 8:45PM, Blü wrote:


Keyfer


How do you explain the mention of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, doesn't that imply a trinity to you?


The Trinity is a very specific doctrine, which the Catholic Encyclopedia calls 'a mystery' (in English, 'a nonsense').  It says that there's a single God but God while still being single consists of three persons, the Father, the Son and the Ghost, and that these are all equal.  The small inferences in the NT that Jesus might be Yahweh's equal are heavily outweighed by the repeated denials - I listed nine of them, but there are more - directly attributed to Jesus in which he says unambiguously he's not Yahweh's equal, only Yahweh's agent.  He further repeatedly says he has no power or authority of his own but only the power and authority that Yahweh gives him.  And NOWHERE in the NT is it stated or necessarily implied that the Ghost is the equal of Jesus or Yahweh.


No surprise there when you consider the Trinity isn't invented until ~180 CE, and is adopted because it's convenient to the church politics of that era.




Blu, its off topic but I am curious,  how can you read:


Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Matthew 28:19)


and say that the NT does not imply a trinity?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 10:48PM #25
Blü
Posts: 24,669

Keyfer


What you cite neither mentions nor necessarily implies equality.


How can you read the following and imply a Trinity?


Mark 2:
10 But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins [...]

Matthew 24:
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

Luke 18:
18 And a ruler asked him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"  19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.[”]

John 5
19 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing [...]

John 5
30 "I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.[”]

John 6
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me [...]

John 8
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.

John 10
25 Jesus answered them, “[...] 29 My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14
10 ... The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.


And nothing puts the Ghost in the frame - he's everyone's servant.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 11:11PM #26
Keyfer
Posts: 2,605

Apr 29, 2012 -- 10:48PM, Blü wrote:


Keyfer


What you cite neither mentions nor necessarily implies equality.


How can you read the following and imply a Trinity?


Mark 2:
10 But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins [...]

Matthew 24:
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

Luke 18:
18 And a ruler asked him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"  19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.[”]

John 5
19 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing [...]

John 5
30 "I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.[”]

John 6
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me [...]

John 8
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.

John 10
25 Jesus answered them, “[...] 29 My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14
10 ... The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.


And nothing puts the Ghost in the frame - he's everyone's servant.




OK, this helps me to understand your pov a little better. Thanks.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 9:06AM #27
jlb32168
Posts: 13,129

I don’t think that it’s proper to separate the two from each other.  In fact, how can you separate the two?  It’s somewhat like the argument of “when does the murder occur”?  Does it occur five seconds before the victim dies or at the point when s/he expires?

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 9:23AM #28
Blü
Posts: 24,669

jlb


I have no idea what two you don't want to separate, but -


Does it occur five seconds before the victim dies or at the point when s/he expires?


How can it be a murder before someone dies?


Next time you fatally shoot someone, the police can only hold you on attempted murder until your victim dies.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 11:04AM #29
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,185

Quote:


'....or authority of his own but only the power and authority that Yahweh gives him.  And NOWHERE in the NT is it stated or necessarily implied that the Ghost is the equal of Jesus or Yahweh.


No surprise there when you consider the Trinity isn't invented until ~180 CE, and is adopted because it's convenient to the church politics of that era.'


Glad to hear no Ghosts are mentioned, but Jesus did promise to send the Comforter, the  Holy Spirit who shall testify of Him.


Jesus said that he was sent by the Father and Father is greater than He.


The human nature he assumed through Mary is lower than the Divine of the Father.  The human had to remain lower untill it was fully purified and the process went all the way to the cross. But after the ressurection the total unity of the Divine and the Human became One.


The scriptures here mentioned are saying the same thing but can be made to confirm anything we want.


People speak of the trinity not as three persons but as three attributes of One God.


Father Son and Holy Spirit are three attributes of One God.


 


 

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