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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 10:27AM #1
Kwinters
Posts: 21,936
As the Lyin' about denyin' thread developed, a contradiction that I don't think I have ever seen raised emerged from the posts that dealt with the content of the passages.

Judas, according to the texts, alerted the authorities to the whereabouts of Jesus.  Two sources link this to his death.

Peter denies Jesus multiple times in public, even swearing he did not know Jesus. He (according to the text) never apologises or held to account, and he is made the rock upon which Jesus builds his church.

???



Mark's version:

While Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came by. When she saw Peter warming himself, she looked closely at him.

“You also were with that Nazarene, Jesus,” she said.


But he denied it. “I don’t know or understand what you’re talking about,” he said, and went out into the entryway.


When the servant girl saw him there, she said again to those standing around, “This fellow is one of them.” Again he denied it.


After a little while, those standing near said to Peter, “Surely you are one of them, for you are a Galilean.”


He began to call down curses on himself, and he swore to them, “I don’t know this man you’re talking about.”


Immediately the rooster crowed the second time. Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken to him: “Before the rooster crows twice you will disown me three times.” And he broke down and wept.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 10:40AM #2
tfvespasianus
Posts: 2,060
He broke down and wept probably for a reason though. Moreover, later writings have him publically proclaiming the gospel. Additionally, if we equate Peter with Cephas (as most do) he's a missionary apostle per the epistles decades later.

 

Is the silence of with respect to an explicit "I should never have done that and I offer a complete and utter retraction of my denial. I was motivated purely by fear and deeply regret any distress my comments my have caused." really that significant given the entire corpus of scripture? It seems to me a very small hook on which to hang a fairly large garment.
Ubi solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant - Tacitus
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 10:51AM #3
jlb32168
Posts: 13,336

I don’t think it’s insignificant that Judas never attempted to seek or ask forgiveness, either.  If anything, he committed a sin from which one cannot repent – he broke the commandment forbidding murder.  Repentance entails a decision to change and God’s forgiveness only comes from repenting and asking forgiveness.  We’ve no evidence of this with Judas.  If anything we have the exact opposite.

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 10:52AM #4
Kwinters
Posts: 21,936

Apr 26, 2012 -- 10:40AM, tfvespasianus wrote:


He broke down and wept probably for a reason though. Moreover, later writings have him publically proclaiming the gospel. Additionally, if we equate Peter with Cephas (as most do) he's a missionary apostle per the epistles decades later.

 

Is the silence of with respect to an explicit "I should never have done that and I offer a complete and utter retraction of my denial. I was motivated purely by fear and deeply regret any distress my comments my have caused." really that significant given the entire corpus of scripture? It seems to me a very small hook on which to hang a fairly large garment.



There were others disciples who maintained their loyalty to Jesus who could have been made the foundation of his church.


That Jesus would, instead, chose someone who had denied him (in direct violation of a teaching that Matthew includes in his story) without any explanation as to why or how does leave a gaping hole in the story.


Why is one betrayal's outcome death, and the other's head apostle?



If the point to be made is forgiveness, that forgiveness is nowhere in the text.  Instead, each post-resurrection account is written as if the betrayal never happened, therefore providing no resolution.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 10:58AM #5
Kwinters
Posts: 21,936

Contrast Judas' repentence in Matthew to how the author relates the conclusion of Peter's betrayal:


Matthew 26


Now Peter was sitting outside in the courtyard, and a servant-girl came to him and said, “You too were with Jesus the Galilean.”  But he denied it before them all, saying, “I do not know what you are talking about.” When he had gone out to the gateway, another servant-girl saw him and said to those who were there, “This man was with Jesus of Nazareth.”  And again he denied it with an oath, “I do not know the man.”  A little later the bystanders came up and said to Peter, “Surely you too are one of them; for even the way you talk z]">gives you away.”  Then he began to curse and swear, “I do not know the man!” And immediately a rooster crowed.


And Peter remembered the word which Jesus had said, “Before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” And he went out and wept bitterly.



Matthew 27


Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.”

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 11:13AM #6
Adelphe
Posts: 28,707

Apr 26, 2012 -- 10:27AM, Kwinters wrote:

As the Lyin' about denyin' thread developed, a contradiction that I don't think I have ever seen raised emerged from the posts that dealt with the content of the passages.

Judas, according to the texts, alerted the authorities to the whereabouts of Jesus.  Two sources link this to his death.

Peter denies Jesus multiple times in public, even swearing he did not know Jesus. He (according to the text) never apologises or held to account, and he is made the rock upon which Jesus builds his church.

???



Sheesh, K, surely you can discern (or look up) the difference between denial and betrayal?



Apr 26, 2012 -- 10:52AM, Kwinters wrote:


There were others disciples who maintained their loyalty to Jesus who could have been made the foundation of his church.


That Jesus would, instead, chose someone who had denied him (in direct violation of a teaching that Matthew includes in his story) without any explanation as to why or how does leave a gaping hole in the story.



Peter unabashedly, abandonedly adored Jesus.  The first to run into the empty tomb without a thought (making himself "unclean"), the first (and only) to jump off the boat and swim to Him post-resurrection:


That disciple whom Jesus loved therefore said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” When Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his outer garment, for he was stripped for work, and threw himself into the sea. The other disciples came in the boat, dragging the net full of fish, for they were not far from the land, but about a hundred yards off.


Also, Jesus saw in Peter a supreme pastoral (and leadership) quality and combined with his love for Jesus, appointed him to do just that:


15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, Feed my lambs. 16 He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, Feed my sheep."


Jesus, of course, was right.  Peter's words in his letters are some of the most tender, fatherly, and comforting in all of the New Testament--in all of Scripture.


Moreover, every follower of Jesus can relate to the blundering, foot-in-mouth, impulsive, often theologically dense, want-to-follow-Jesus-with-whole-heart-unless-it-becomes-a-bit-too-embarrassing-or- threatening, (utterly teddy-bear lovable) Peter.  Jesus knew that, too.


Jesus picked the perfectly IMPERFECT model disciple to pastor His lambs/sheep.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 11:18AM #7
tfvespasianus
Posts: 2,060

Apr 26, 2012 -- 10:52AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 10:40AM, tfvespasianus wrote:


He broke down and wept probably for a reason though. Moreover, later writings have him publically proclaiming the gospel. Additionally, if we equate Peter with Cephas (as most do) he's a missionary apostle per the epistles decades later.

 

Is the silence of with respect to an explicit "I should never have done that and I offer a complete and utter retraction of my denial. I was motivated purely by fear and deeply regret any distress my comments my have caused." really that significant given the entire corpus of scripture? It seems to me a very small hook on which to hang a fairly large garment.



There were others disciples who maintained their loyalty to Jesus who could have been made the foundation of his church.


That Jesus would, instead, chose someone who had denied him (in direct violation of a teaching that Matthew includes in his story) without any explanation as to why or how does leave a gaping hole in the story.


Why is one betrayal's outcome death, and the other's head apostle?



If the point to be made is forgiveness, that forgiveness is nowhere in the text.  Instead, each post-resurrection account is written as if the betrayal never happened, therefore providing no resolution.




One betrayal is the handing over of Jesus for arrest and the other is a fleeting denial made out of fear to strangers that has no bearing on the outcome (i.e. even if Peter would have said 'That's my friend in there!' it wouldn't have saved Jesus).

 

As for the resolution to the fleeting denial, once again, you are asking for the explicit rather than accepting any possible implicit interpretation. If we grant Jesus in the story has the accurate foreknowledge to know of Peter's denial can we arbitrarily dismiss his accurate foreknowledge of the nature of Peter's subsequent apostleship?



Ubi solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant - Tacitus
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 11:23AM #8
Blü
Posts: 24,921

Adelphe


Sheesh, K, surely you can discern (or look up) the difference between denial and betrayal?


Tim Rice dealt with this very accurately in his book for Jesus Christ, Superstar.  In the gospels, Jesus goes to his death knowing that his death is the express will of Yahweh.  The rest is detail - if Judas doesn't do it, and no one else fills the gap, Jesus will have to turn himself in.


Interesting, too, that Paul didn't know the Judas story.  That suggests it was a tale developed after Paul's time.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 11:27AM #9
jlb32168
Posts: 13,336

Apr 26, 2012 -- 11:23AM, Blü wrote:

Interesting, too, that Paul didn't know the Judas story.


How do you know this?

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 11:30AM #10
SecondSonOfDavid
Posts: 3,344

Apr 26, 2012 -- 11:23AM, Blü wrote:


Interesting, too, that Paul didn't know the Judas story.  That suggests it was a tale developed after Paul's time.




Actually no.  It only shows that Paul, living in Tarsus, did not get the details on Jesus' betrayal.  Since by his own account he was raised and taught as a pharisee in a Roman culture, it's not as if Saul was going to get Peter's version of events.  Also, in any case Paul's story starts up after Christ's resurrection, so everything before the Cross was already covered, from Paul's POV.

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier.
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