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Switch to Forum Live View What follows from Atheism
3 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 9:20PM #141
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

May 1, 2012 -- 9:11PM, wohali wrote:


Knowsnothing, of course Steven has a "worldview", but he maintains that his lack of belief in gods has little to do with it. I'm willing to take him at his word.




Fair enough.

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3 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 9:21PM #142
steven_guy
Posts: 11,751

May 1, 2012 -- 8:59PM, Knowsnothing wrote:


As for Steven's atheism, well obviously I can't speak for him.  All I can say is that, to me, everyone holds a world view, even if they are not aware of it.  He said he was involved in politics.  Guess what, that is part of his personal world view.


Nope. I am only interested in supporting my local Labor Party member, the Right Honourable Ms Kate Ellis MP. Not much interest beyond that.


I don't understand why I'm getting so much grief for using this word. 


You should be getting grief for it - you've been using the words in a totally ad hoc manner.


Maybe I'm mistaken on the positive affirmation thing.


You most certainly are. I was born an atheist, like everyone, and I've remained one my entire life.


  However, I would say there is an important exception.  When prompted (and I've said it many times), he may respond as affirmation that he certainly believes no god/gods exist.  Why is that a problem?


Okay, do you affirm that the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Boogieman, Zeus, Apollo, Wotan, Vishnu, Aphrodite, Mercury, Athena, Neptune, Thor, Cihuacoatl, Huitzilopochtli, Copacati, Urcaguarand the Pudding That Ate Chicago don't exist? Do you do this each day? Do you spend all your time not believing in the existence of all these imaginary beings? Go away and think about it.





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3 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 9:26PM #143
steven_guy
Posts: 11,751

I am with Ken and Farragut. I don't really have a world view. I just live from day to day in my local area.

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3 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 9:42PM #144
costrel
Posts: 6,226

May 1, 2012 -- 3:12PM, Knowsnothing wrote:

You sir, fail to grasp that since others possess a different POV on life influenced by religion or belief, that you don't have a world view, personal philosophy, what have you.


You believe this is all there is, and that in turn affects your day-to-day actions.  You believe in making a change in the here and now.  That is a world view, if any.  Call it what you like.  Blame "semantics".  You are a unique individual that has taken a stance to not allow religion/belief in the supernatural possess your life, and you live accordingly.


I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying you've taken a position.


I can only speak for myself, but what I consider my "philosophy of life" (what I think you may be terming "worldview") has changed very little from when I was a Christian. One of the major things that has changed since I became an atheist is that I am no longer a strict pacifist. I have met ex-Christian atheists in real life who have radically changed their views since they left Christianity (i.e., they now accept evolution, they now support gay marriage, etc.) but I am not one of those ex-Christian atheists. In fact, the things that certain posters here have claimed make me "anti-Catholic" are the very same things that I either did not like or rejected concerning the Catholic Church when I was still a Catholic. Realizing that I could not accept the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Code of Canon Law and deciding that I did not want to live as if I did accept them was one of the major reasons why I left Catholicism and became an apostate. My atheism came later and was not connected to this apostasy. I was what might be termed a monotheistic dystheist right before I became an atheist. Dystheists, according to Walter Savage Landor in Epicurus and Metrodorus, are "believers who find them [the gods] guilty of cruelty, jealousy, vengeance, and injustice." 

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3 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 9:47PM #145
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

May 1, 2012 -- 9:21PM, steven_guy wrote:


Okay, do you affirm that the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Boogieman, Zeus, Apollo, Wotan, Vishnu, Aphrodite, Mercury, Athena, Neptune, Thor, Cihuacoatl, Huitzilopochtli, Copacati, Urcaguarand the Pudding That Ate Chicago don't exist?



No.


May 1, 2012 -- 9:21PM, steven_guy wrote:



Do you do this each day?



Unless prompted, no.


May 1, 2012 -- 9:21PM, steven_guy wrote:



Do you spend all your time not believing in the existence of all these imaginary beings? Go away and think about it.




No, and you've made your point. 


However, say you live in a Christian nation.  You are badgered daily on this specific belief.  They go on and on about how it is true.  You are basically forced to respond.


There in lies the problem.  It's not about Zeus or all the other deities.  It's about the Christian god that you have to constantly reject.  That in turn shapes you, molds you.  It's an external influence, and unless you move out of that area, you will be subjected to it. 


Such a persistent view, be it true or false, forces your reaction, get it?


It's no different situation for an Atheist in Muslim world.  They have to deal with Allah everyday, and more problematically, with fear of ostracization and even possible death.

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3 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 9:59PM #146
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

May 1, 2012 -- 9:42PM, costrel wrote:


 One of the major things that has changed since I became an atheist is that I am no longer a strict pacifist.



Hence the OP, what follows from atheism.  It affected your world view, or at least "your personal philosophy."  Point is, something in you changed.


May 1, 2012 -- 9:42PM, costrel wrote:


I have met ex-Christian atheists in real life who have radically changed their views since they left Christianity (i.e., they now accept evolution, they now support gay marriage, etc.) but I am not one of those ex-Christian atheists.



I find that odd.  You claim to be atheist, yet reject evolution?


May 1, 2012 -- 9:42PM, costrel wrote:


In fact, the things that certain posters here have claimed make me "anti-Catholic" are the very same things that I either did not like or rejected concerning the Catholic Church when I was still a Catholic. Realizing that I could not accept the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Code of Canon Law and deciding that I did not want to live as if I did accept them was one of the major reasons why I left Catholicism and became an apostate.



Ok, so your stepping stone was questioning the religious institution you belonged to.  I guess each individuals journey is different, although I'd say your journey is remarkably similar to mine.


May 1, 2012 -- 9:42PM, costrel wrote:


My atheism came later and was not connected to this apostasy. I was what might be termed a monotheistic dystheist right before I became an atheist. Dystheists, according to Walter Savage Landor in Epicurus and Metrodorus, are "believers who find them [the gods] guilty of cruelty, jealousy, vengeance, and injustice." 




Angry and bitter?  Been there, done that.  Once you become atheist, you kinda think to yourself, "why am I angry at the non-existent?"


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3 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 10:05PM #147
mountain_man
Posts: 40,578

May 1, 2012 -- 1:44AM, Knowsnothing wrote:

The OP was made as a positive claim to what might happen if Atheism is your world view.


The claim in the OP cannot be answered. Atheism is not a "world view." It is nothing more than a lack of belief in gods. Is not believing in faeries a world view?


IMO, Atheism simply makes no gurantee on behavior.  That is up to the individual.


There is nothing in Atheism to do anything. There is no philosphy, no world view, not nothing, just a lack of belief in gods. Does a lack of belief in faeries guarantee anything?

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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3 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 10:06PM #148
costrel
Posts: 6,226

May 1, 2012 -- 9:47PM, Knowsnothing wrote:

No, and you've made your point. 


However, say you live in a Christian nation.  You are badgered daily on this specific belief.  They go on and on about how it is true.  You are basically forced to respond.


There in lies the problem.  It's not about Zeus or all the other deities.  It's about the Christian god that you have to constantly reject.  That in turn shapes you, molds you.  It's an external influence, and unless you move out of that area, you will be subjected to it. 


Such a persistent view, be it true or false, forces your reaction, get it?


It's no different situation for an Atheist in Muslim world.  They have to deal with Allah everyday, and more problematically, with fear of ostracization and even possible death.


No, atheists in a Christian nation or atheists in a Muslim nation do not have to "constantly reject" the Christian God or "deal with Allah everyday." What atheists would have to deal with are Christians and Muslims who believe in God, as well as a culture and a politics centered around this theism. An atheist doesn't have to "constantly reject" God or "deal with [God] everyday." If a so-called atheist was having to "constantly reject" or "deal with" God on a daily basis, that atheist might not be an actual atheist but rather be some kind of a theist. 

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3 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 10:13PM #149
mountain_man
Posts: 40,578

May 1, 2012 -- 10:06PM, costrel wrote:

No, atheists in a Christian nation or atheists in a Muslim nation do not have to "constantly reject" the Christian God or "deal with Allah everyday." What atheists would have to deal with are Christians and Muslims who believe in God, as well as a culture and a politics centered around this theism. An atheist doesn't have to "constantly reject" God or "deal with [God] everyday." If a so-called atheist was having to "constantly reject" or "deal with" God on a daily basis, that atheist might not be an actual atheist but rather be some kind of a theist.


In reviewing my whole day, brushing my teeth, eating breakfast, taking the bus to work, working hard all day, bus back home, eating dinner.... not once did I reject a god. A god rejected or not, was simply not part of my day. Just about every day is like that.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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3 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 10:38PM #150
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

May 1, 2012 -- 10:06PM, costrel wrote:


 No, atheists in a Christian nation or atheists in a Muslim nation do not have to "constantly reject" the Christian God or "deal with Allah everyday."  What atheists would have to deal with are Christians and Muslims who believe in God, as well as a culture and a politics centered around this theism.



That's what I was saying.  Especially when you are confronted with those that hold these to be true.


May 1, 2012 -- 10:06PM, costrel wrote:


An atheist doesn't have to "constantly reject" God or "deal with [God] everyday." If a so-called atheist was having to "constantly reject" or "deal with" God on a daily basis, that atheist might not be an actual atheist but rather be some kind of a theist. 




Reject the God concept.  Poor choice of words for me.  I would've thought that was pretty self-explanatory, however.  I'll repost my comment.


However, say you live in a Christian nation.  You are badgered daily on this specific belief.  They go on and on about how it is true.  You are basically forced to respond.


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