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3 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 6:59AM #21
gangajal
Posts: 835

Dear Silence,


            First a clarification: I mean by physical the physical, subtle, causal complex.


Now, Just look at the Gita verses 6.37-6.44:


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Arjuna said: What, O Krshna, is the fate of a man who, though endowed with firm faith, is not steadfast in his practices owing to distractions, and therefore fails to reach spiritual perfection? (Gita 6.37)


O mighty-armed Lord! Bewildered in the path of Brahman, supportless, does he not lose both this world and the next? Does he not perish like a rain-cloud rent asunder? (Gita 6.38)


O Krshna! My doubt in this respect has yet to be cleared completely. Indeed! I find none better than Thee to be that doubt-dispeller. (Gita 6.39)


The Blessed Lord said: O son of Pritha! He does not meet with downfall either here in this world or in the hereafter. Know for certain, O dear one, the one who treads the path of virtue never goes to ruin.    (Gita 6.40)


The fallen Yogi goes to the spheres of the righteous, and after having lived there for unnumbered years, is reborn in this world in a pure and prosperous family. (Gita 6.41)


Or he is reborn in a family of men fullof wisdom and spirituality. Rebirth under such conditions is very hard to get in this world. (Gita 6.42)


There, O scion of the clan of Kurus! He will regain the spiritual discernment of his previous birth, and then he will strive harder for perfection. (Gita 6.43)


Even if helpless, he will be striven towards the path of Yoga by the force of his previous striving. For even a beginner in the path of Yoga goes above the stage requiring the aid of Vedic ritualism. (Gita 6.44)


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The Yoga experiences are so powerful that a Yogi will regain his yogic experience even after death and then rebirth according to Gita 6.43! The Chakras are made of consciousness and will not become mithya.


So what do Advaitaic texts mean?




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3 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 7:19AM #22
silence_speaks
Posts: 568

Dear Gangajal,


                :)


1. If Chakras have division, like "chakra 1, chakra 2 " etc and shape... then how can they be "Shudda chaitanyam" or pure consciousness ? Consciousness or Awarness as Brahman is supposed to be "Akanadita, undividable" so all divisions are "As if" only. More over its attributeless and formless! so Brahman is supposed to be formless, all names and forms are "As if" [meaning mithya] in it. Like something reflected in a mirror !


2. Rebirth means only physical body is gone, not subtle / causal body. so there is no wonder yogi's regain their previous levels coz all that is encoded in the causal level in vasanas.


3. Whats the authority for stating that chakras are "Awareness" ? Everything is "in awareness", as if. An apparent ripple in awareness only. in that sense even body is in awareness only. the question is whats the authority for "Presence of Chakras" and "Chakras being in Awareness" ? I am asking because I did not come across it in my study of vedanta so far. so vedanta does not seem to be a pramana for that !!


 


 

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3 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 10:37AM #23
gangajal
Posts: 835

Dear Silence,


            These are very good points. I have given my replies below.


[[[1. If Chakras have division, like "chakra 1, chakra 2 " etc and shape... then how can they be "Shudda chaitanyam" or pure consciousness ? Consciousness or Awarness as Brahman is supposed to be "Akanadita, undividable" so all divisions are "As if" only. More over its attributeless and formless! so Brahman is supposed to be formless, all names and forms are "As if" [meaning mithya] in it. Like something reflected in a mirror !]]]


Yes, Brahman is attributeless and formless. However, we are also Brahman and have attributes and have form! Moreover Yogis say that Chakras are made of consciousness. Let me give you a quote from Sri Ramakrishna spoken on December 24, 1883:


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"Ida, Pingala and Sushumna are the three principal nerves. All the lotuses are located in the Sushumna. They are formed of Consciousness, like a tree made of wax ..... God can not be seen unless She (Kundalini) is awakened."


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All spiritual practices, including those of Jnana Marga, are about awakening of Kundalini Shakti and activating Chakras. The only important point is that Jnana Marga practices are supposed to bypass all lower Chakras and directly activate Sahasrara. Bhakti Marga practices also bypass lower Chakras and directly activate Ajna Chakra. Sakti sadhana is about activating Chakras step by step.


[[[2. Rebirth means only physical body is gone, not subtle / causal body. so there is no wonder yogi's regain their previous levels coz all that is encoded in the causal level in vasanas.]]]


Chakras are not vasanas but are formed of Consciousness.


[[[3. Whats the authority for stating that chakras are "Awareness" ? Everything is "in awareness", as if. An apparent ripple in awareness only. in that sense even body is in awareness only. the question is whats the authority for "Presence of Chakras" and "Chakras being in Awareness" ? I am asking because I did not come across it in my study of vedanta so far. so vedanta does not seem to be a pramana for that !!]]]


I have already quoted Sri Ramakrishna on Chakras. Let me now quote Prasna Upanishad. I will suggest you check Prasna U III.6 to III.12. I will explicitly write down 2 shlokas:


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The Atman dwells in the heart, where there are one hundred and one nadis; for each of these there are one hundred branches, again, there are seventy two thousand subsidiary nadis. Vyana moves in these. (Prasna U III.6)


He who knows the origin of prana,its entry,its place, its fivefold distribution, its internal aspect and also its external, obtains immortality; yea, he obtains immortality. (Prasna U III.12)


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 All spiritual practices are merely to familiarize us with all aspects of Prana.

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3 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 5:03AM #24
silence_speaks
Posts: 568

Dear Gangajal,


          :)


1. Everything is "Formed" of Consciousness and what ever is "Formed" becomes Mithya. Formed of Consciousness itself means a upadhi is present along with Consciousness and hence, it becomes mithya.


Infact Shankara in nirvana shatakam says :न धर्मो न चार्थो न कामो ना मोक्ष:  Even moksha is rejected !!


elsewhere he says "na muktir na bandho" ... there is no liberation, nor bondage.


So, all chakras and all shastras also belong to the realm of mithya.


2. Do you see what I mean ? When a rope is lying motionless, any motion seen on it is imagination. Like a snake imagiend on it. So what ever motion we see here... whether its motion of energy or something else ... its like a snake imagiend on a rope. ofcourse, the motion imagined in chakras would lead one to go beyond them and see the rope! so thats better than worldly motion. but all is mithya.


3. Siva and Shakti are one. Siva lies motionless and Shakti appears "As if in motion" ... in reality Siva and shakti are one. The apparent motion is just maya. ya ma ... thats what is maya , right ?

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3 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 1:05PM #25
gangajal
Posts: 835

You are right, Silence, that all is mithya from the point of view of a Jnani. This is a philosophical position.


From the point of view of a spiritual aspirant the chakras and everything else are very much real. This is a practical position.

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3 years ago  ::  May 11, 2012 - 1:46AM #26
silence_speaks
Posts: 568

Dear Gangajal,


                  :) Sadhana is, whenever the sadhaka finds a different between the philosophic & practical situation, he makes the practical situation same as philosophic situation. Thats when its sadahana.


If the gap between philosophic and practical sides is high, then the sadhana needs to be properly guided.


 

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3 years ago  ::  May 11, 2012 - 10:54AM #27
gangajal
Posts: 835

Dear Silence,


       If an aspiring sadhaka really wants to live by the mithya idea then he has to assume that everything is Brahman. This creates defficulties. Then there is no need to move out of a speeding car since even the speeding car is Brahman. In reality, no sadhaka will stand in front of a speeding car.


        The idea of mithya is also dangerous in another way. Many self serving Gurus and western academics say that since everything is mithya, it is all right to lie, cheat, kill, have sexual relations while claiming Brahmacharya etc since these are also mithya. The idea that jiva and jagat are mithya is not a practical idea. I have no doubt that a Jnani uses the term mithya to describe his personal experience. We who are not Jnanis and have not had such experience have to take the mithya idea as a philosophical position and not a practical way to live one's life. I do not know how a Jnani lives his life and so will not comment on it.


 Gangajal

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3 years ago  ::  May 14, 2012 - 2:15AM #28
silence_speaks
Posts: 568

Dear Gangajal,


                  :) Jagat is mithya, whether i jump out of the car or remain in it. If i jump out of the car, that death or physical destruction remains mithya, if i remain in the car, that comfort also is mithya. So mithya is just that... irrespective of what you do , it remains so. so why should a person try to "destroy" mithya? any attempt to destroy this body etc is only born of not understanding it as mithya. The shadow remains a shadow ... its never a ghost. a person who is trying to burry the shadow is really a person who still thinks the shadow is a ghost.  


having understood it as dream, one just continues the dream or one may even make it a nice dream. As per prarabdha the dream unfolds and prarabdha also is a mithya law. just a part of the play. only a person who has not understood will try to end it. Every dream has its own laws.


someone once asked me ... since its a dream, can i kill someone ? the answer is yes, but if you kill, you will get a dream punishment and may get hanged ! so its like that.


And Gangajal, a person who has understood this world as mithya, is necessarily with a very subtle mind. if the mind is not subtle, he or she cannot recognize that the world is mithya. which automatically means that he has a degree of vairagya, a degree of viveka etc. so he would not try to destroy, kill, molest someone etc. his subtle mind would make sure even the projected dream is calm, peaceful and spreading happiness. and he makes no effort to move either ways.


World is mithya is a vision with which you look at the world. Gangajal, Yoga Vaisishta says emphatically that if one does not adopt this vision one cannot Realize at all. This vision is a must to understand. one cannot escape this.

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