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Switch to Forum Live View What would you do for God?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 11:23AM #21
lope
Posts: 9,656

Apr 24, 2012 -- 4:15AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 23, 2012 -- 9:31PM, Jenandew7 wrote:


God would never demand that we kill. 



1 Samuel 15


Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. This is what the Lord Almighty says:


‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them.


Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”



So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men from Judah. Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. Then he said to the Kenites, “Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.


Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt. He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword....





God never told anyone to kill someone else.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 11:25AM #22
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Apr 24, 2012 -- 4:16AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 24, 2012 -- 2:44AM, davelaw40 wrote:


If the "voice of God" contradicts the plain meaning of the NT; Go with the NT. And you call us Bibliolators.




Sorry, but what is the 'plain meaning' of the NT? And can you cite the specific passages that contain said 'plain meaning'?




live peaceable with all men


Love your wife


don't provoke your children and so on...

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 11:27AM #23
lope
Posts: 9,656

Apr 23, 2012 -- 4:39PM, Kwinters wrote:


Don't know if anyone else here enjoys the guilty pleasure of the show Supernatural, but in the 4th season the story gets quite interesting.

Just a quick question to all believers here: how far would you go if God asked it of you?

Would you torture someone?
Would you rape or inflict sexual torture?
Would you kill children?
Would you kill?

If God asked it of you, would you obey his will or would you do what he asked?

And no, 'god would never do that' does not count as a valid answer.  That is an evasion.  

God in a vision shows you where there is a person who is possessed by a demon. He tells you the person is already dead and he needs you to kill that demon by destroying the body it possess. You believe this vision is a vision from God, and not a trick or mental lapse.

Would you? 

If you would kill for your country, would you also kill for your God? Or would you disobey.





The only command we have from God is to love others.  I would kill someone if it was the only way I could prevent someone else being harmed by them, because that would be the loving thing to do.  There is a time to kill but it is not very often and I am glad I have never faced that problem.  It is not an evasion to say God would never tell us to kills someone.  I believe Abraham responded incorrectly to God when God told him to kill his son.  I do not believe that happened, but assuming it did, the correct response would have been no, I will not.  If you want my son killed you must do it your self, and if I had the power to prevent it, I would.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 1:50PM #24
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

Apr 24, 2012 -- 11:23AM, lope wrote:

Apr 24, 2012 -- 4:15AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 23, 2012 -- 9:31PM, Jenandew7 wrote:


God would never demand that we kill. 



1 Samuel 15


Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. This is what the Lord Almighty says:


‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them.


Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”



So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men from Judah. Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. Then he said to the Kenites, “Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.


Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt. He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword....





God never told anyone to kill someone else.


What's this?



 Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.  Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.  That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 4:07PM #25
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Apr 24, 2012 -- 7:31AM, Adelphe wrote:

Apr 24, 2012 -- 4:43AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Oh, BTW, even as "anti-idolatric hygiene" the Canaanite Genocides were not very successful, were they? The Israelites kept lapsing into polytheism and idolatry anyway ...


And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?


LOL!


Absolutely nothing with the price of tea in China ...


Absolutely everything with the purpose and efficacy of the Canaanite Genocides, that presumedly YHWH God would have ordered to the Israelites to carry out ...


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 4:33PM #26
lope
Posts: 9,656

Apr 24, 2012 -- 1:50PM, Paladinsf wrote:

Apr 24, 2012 -- 11:23AM, lope wrote:


Apr 24, 2012 -- 4:15AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 23, 2012 -- 9:31PM, Jenandew7 wrote:


God would never demand that we kill. 



1 Samuel 15


Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. This is what the Lord Almighty says:


‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them.


Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”



So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men from Judah. Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. Then he said to the Kenites, “Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.


Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt. He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword....





God never told anyone to kill someone else.




What's this?



 Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.  Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.  That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)




Not from God.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 4:42PM #27
SecondSonOfDavid
Posts: 3,344

I think a lot gets lost in context.  The "God Tells You to Kill" crowd loves to go off on what happened during the years when Moses and Joshua led the Israelites into the Promised Land.  A small number of people, concentrated all in one place, surrounded by enemies trying to kill them, is quite a bit different from what we have going on today.



 

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 5:51AM #28
Adelphe
Posts: 28,699

Apr 24, 2012 -- 4:07PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Apr 24, 2012 -- 7:31AM, Adelphe wrote:

Apr 24, 2012 -- 4:43AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Oh, BTW, even as "anti-idolatric hygiene" the Canaanite Genocides were not very successful, were they? The Israelites kept lapsing into polytheism and idolatry anyway ...


And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?


LOL!


Absolutely nothing with the price of tea in China ...


Absolutely everything with the purpose and efficacy of the Canaanite Genocides, that presumedly YHWH God would have ordered to the Israelites to carry out ...


MdS




And again, so what?


Is it your contention God shouldn't command anything because human beings can fail to carry it out?

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 6:06AM #29
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

Apr 24, 2012 -- 4:42PM, SecondSonOfDavid wrote:

I think a lot gets lost in context.  The "God Tells You to Kill" crowd loves to go off on what happened during the years when Moses and Joshua led the Israelites into the Promised Land.  A small number of people, concentrated all in one place, surrounded by enemies trying to kill them, is quite a bit different from what we have going on today.



 


MORE moral relativism???

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 7:48AM #30
jlb32168
Posts: 12,201

Apr 25, 2012 -- 6:06AM, Paladinsf wrote:

MORE moral relativism???


I think it's funny that an atheist speaks of moral absolutes.

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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