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Switch to Forum Live View What would you do for God?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 3:36PM #101
Kwinters
Posts: 18,079

Apr 30, 2012 -- 3:01PM, nieciedo wrote:


Apr 30, 2012 -- 2:40PM, Kwinters wrote:


A reminder: the proposed moral absolute is it is always wrong to lie to God.


Hence the thought experiment.


The issue here is to find out if being an accomplice in infanticide is less morally egregious than lying to protect human life - even to a god.





I see. Is it wrong to lie to God? It's clearly pointless. I guess it would be wrong because it would imply a lack of faith and trust and perhaps also a sign of disobedience.


I would need more information. God could presumably kill the baby instantly without anyone needing to get involved, but by asking me for some unfathomable reason then He is involving me in the matter and it's fair for me to know why. I can't think of a comparable example from Scripture, which makes the case even more suspicious. I would need to know why He wants to kill the baby and why He needs me to tell him. My answer would depend on His.





Go back and start at post 56 to see the discussion start.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 4:22PM #102
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

Apr 30, 2012 -- 3:36PM, Kwinters wrote:


Go back and start at post 56 to see the discussion start.




I did, and the hypothetical situation is still too murky.


Assuming all the things necessary to make this situation possible, and assuming that this really is a real divine communication, the best course of action is to question the request and then ultimately answer Him truthfully and trust that He knows what He is doing.


It's not a test, clearly, because there's nothing that the individual can do to affect. Lying Me lying isn't going to accomplish anything, and God - having given us everything we have including our existence - is entitled to our obedience and trust. If God exists and one cannot trust that His will is the moral absolute, then one's is pretty much SOL.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 8:57PM #103
Adelphe
Posts: 28,699

Apr 30, 2012 -- 2:40PM, Kwinters wrote:


A reminder: the proposed moral absolute is it is always wrong to lie to God.


Hence the thought experiment.



And (again) the answer is yes.



The issue here is to find out if being an accomplice in infanticide is less morally egregious than lying to protect human life - even to a god.




Totally fallacious (and in more ways than one) as I already observed, as jlb most aptly demonstrated, and as nieciedo also did.


I'm not sure of the reason for the switch, btw, from "always wrong to lie to God" (capitalized, as in the theistic God YHWH (whom we've been discussing) to "a god."


We're not here discussing "a god."  We're here discussing the God of theism, "Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe. As such theism describes the classical conception of God that is found in Christianity, Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism."

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 6:07PM #104
Kwinters
Posts: 18,079

Apr 30, 2012 -- 8:57PM, Adelphe wrote:


Apr 30, 2012 -- 2:40PM, Kwinters wrote:


A reminder: the proposed moral absolute is it is always wrong to lie to God.


Hence the thought experiment.



And (again) the answer is yes.



The issue here is to find out if being an accomplice in infanticide is less morally egregious than lying to protect human life - even to a god.




Totally fallacious (and in more ways than one) as I already observed, as jlb most aptly demonstrated, and as nieciedo also did.


I'm not sure of the reason for the switch, btw, from "always wrong to lie to God" (capitalized, as in the theistic God YHWH (whom we've been discussing) to "a god."


We're not here discussing "a god."  We're here discussing the God of theism, "Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe. As such theism describes the classical conception of God that is found in Christianity, Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism."




The God of the Bible killed babies.  Personally.


And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick....And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died.


We all know you'd hand over the baby, watch god kill it in front of you and call that 'good'.


If that is what people call more moral than protecting life and lying to god, that is the act they would be complicit in and they would call that a holy thing.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 6:14PM #105
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

May 1, 2012 -- 6:07PM, Kwinters wrote:


The God of the Bible killed babies.  Personally.


And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick....And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died.


We all know you'd hand over the baby, watch god kill it in front of you and call that 'good'.



What if the baby is Damian from the The Omen or Adrian from Rosemary's Baby?


If that is what people call more moral than protecting life and lying to god, that is the act they would be complicit in and they would call that a holy thing.




You haven't explained how you can protect life from God or what lying to God would accomplish.

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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 6:23PM #106
Adelphe
Posts: 28,699

May 1, 2012 -- 6:07PM, Kwinters wrote:


The God of the Bible killed babies.  Personally.


And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick....And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died.




Can you please provide the evidence-based case that supports this assertion?

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 6:27PM #107
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,653

Nieciedo I do not think this topic is about God, of the bible, and his supposed behaviour. So much as what his followers believe about him and would be willing to do for him. And defend him doing. 


It seems many are willing to over look the atrocities written about in a book many claim is inerrant and literally true and calling those atrocities good, and they agree with such. Because their god can do no wrong, no matter how evil the behaviour.


Now personally I do not think any of those things happened. And I do not think badly of this god. But I would if I did and I would not worship something I though would do such things.


Now maybe you could not deceive such a being, but I would certainly not be complicit either.


This topic is about people. Not the God.


People have not changed much. And a lot of people in the past were more then willing to kill people in the name of their God, and because they thought it would please their God.


How many people today in the USA make discriminatory laws, based on what they believe their God wants? Same idea.



Peace my friend

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 6:30PM #108
Kwinters
Posts: 18,079

May 1, 2012 -- 6:23PM, Adelphe wrote:


May 1, 2012 -- 6:07PM, Kwinters wrote:


The God of the Bible killed babies.  Personally.


And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick....And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died.




Can you please provide the evidence-based case that supports this assertion?





I'm sorry. I didn't realize that for you the Bible is a load of bullcrap.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 6:45PM #109
Adelphe
Posts: 28,699

May 1, 2012 -- 6:30PM, Kwinters wrote:


May 1, 2012 -- 6:23PM, Adelphe wrote:


May 1, 2012 -- 6:07PM, Kwinters wrote:


The God of the Bible killed babies.  Personally.


And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick....And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died.




Can you please provide the evidence-based case that supports this assertion?





I'm sorry. I didn't realize that for you the Bible is a load of bullcrap.




So you're saying there's no point in citing the Bible and you won't be doing it anymore?  Least of all in support of an argument?

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 6:50PM #110
Kwinters
Posts: 18,079

May 1, 2012 -- 6:45PM, Adelphe wrote:


May 1, 2012 -- 6:30PM, Kwinters wrote:


May 1, 2012 -- 6:23PM, Adelphe wrote:


May 1, 2012 -- 6:07PM, Kwinters wrote:


The God of the Bible killed babies.  Personally.


And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick....And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died.




Can you please provide the evidence-based case that supports this assertion?





I'm sorry. I didn't realize that for you the Bible is a load of bullcrap.




So you're saying there's no point in citing the Bible and you won't be doing it anymore?  Least of all in support of an argument?





There there is no basis for claim moral absolutes.


Theism in and of itself has no moral structure attached to it. It is merely an assertion of at least one deity. 


To assert moral absolutes one must assert a moral framework.  The moral framework we have that describes the god of the Bible includes his actively killing babies.


And asking questions to which, if he were omnipotent, he should have known the answer.


Ergo the though experiment is entirely valid to test the claim that lying to God is always wrong.

Moderated by Adelphe on May 03, 2012 - 08:36AM
Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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