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Switch to Forum Live View What would you do for God?
2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 7:30PM #111
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
Theism may make no moral absolute claims but Christianity does and the moral absolute is the will of God. What Go wills is moral and what is moral is what God wills. So if God wants to kill Baby Damien, then it is a moral act. And if God's will is moral and if lying is contrary to God's will then it is wrong to lie to God.
Although honestly, when was the last time anyone had the opportunity to lie to God?
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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 7:35PM #112
Kwinters
Posts: 20,993

May 1, 2012 -- 7:30PM, nieciedo wrote:

Theism may make no moral absolute claims but Christianity does and the moral absolute is the will of God. What Go wills is moral and what is moral is what God wills. So if God wants to kill Baby Damien, then it is a moral act. And if God's will is moral and if lying is contrary to God's will then it is wrong to lie to God. Although honestly, when was the last time anyone had the opportunity to lie to God?




Who said God was killing baby Damien?  David's baby was completely innocent.  God killed it to make his parents suffer horrible emotional anguish.


Was that moral?


Out of curiosity, do you understand the purpose of a thought experiment?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 7:39PM #113
Kwinters
Posts: 20,993

May 1, 2012 -- 7:30PM, nieciedo wrote:

Theism may make no moral absolute claims but Christianity does and the moral absolute is the will of God. What Go wills is moral and what is moral is what God wills.



This implies that what god does is moral, since he is the source of morality. Therefore everything that god does is an example of a perfectly moral act.  


Given that, murdering babies is moral because god did it. Killing humans is moral because god did it.  Human sacrifice is moral, because god did it. Getting unwed teenage girls pregnant is moral because god did it.


If god is the source of what is and isn't moral then shouldn't all his actions be perfect examples of perfect morality?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 8:27PM #114
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

I do understand the purposes of a thought experiment. I LOVE thought experiments. But a flawed thought experiment is just as useful as a flawed non-thought experiment


May 1, 2012 -- 7:39PM, Kwinters wrote:


This implies that what god does is moral, since he is the source of morality. Therefore everything that god does is an example of a perfectly moral act. 



Agreed. Every action that God is depicted as engaging in is a perfectly moral act...for a God. Notice that I said the moral absolute is God's will. So, if God wills for humans to do something, that is moral; if God wills for humans not to do something, it is immoral. God has revealed some of the basic principles that determine His will - which we believe to be expressions of His nature - but the bottom line is that it is the will of God that determines morality.


Given that, murdering babies is moral because god did it.



Killing babies would be moral if God willed us to do it. There are specific situations in the Old Testament where that regrettably appears to be the case. However, there is not to my knowledge any general imperative to murder babies or permission to do so under the Sinai Covenant and certainly not under the New Covenant. God can kill whomever He likes - if you accept the theistic language, He is not only our Creator but the supremely just and supreme judge of all the world. But there are many things that God can do and that we can't: God can kill but also resurrect, for example.


Killing humans is moral because god did it.



That's a good question. I'm still trying to decide whether the New Covenant mandates, permits, or prohibits killing altogether and I know there have been disagreements in the church over this issue. I do know that God's will prohibits "murder," not killing. The Old Law instituted death penalties for various offenses and thus it was not immoral to carry them out provided the verdicts were justy determined. It was also a positive moral imperative for a person to kill an attacker that threatened his life in order to save himself. These were commands from God and thus they were moral. The Old Law also provided for just wars. The question is how much of this is applicable under the New Law. I'm still sorting this out, but I know that Christian scholars greater than me have argued that one is permitted to kill if there is no other way to preserve life (based on God's will); on the other hand there is the example of Jesus and the "turn the other cheek" teaching.


Human sacrifice is moral, because god did it.



God has not willed us to sacrifice humans, with the exception of Abraham where the operative word was "offer" but not "sacrifice" or "kill." The Israelites were commanded to sacrifice certain animals and were prohibited from offering any other sacrifices; Christians need no sacrifices.


So, I would say that human sacrifice is moral provided 1) you sacrifice yourself and 2) you happen to be God incarnate.


Getting unwed teenage girls pregnant is moral because god did it.



If she was a legal adult and consented, sure.


If god is the source of what is and isn't moral then shouldn't all his actions be perfect examples of perfect morality?




Yep. However, is every act moral for every person? It's moral for a doctor to prescribe medications based on the patient's need; it's not moral for me to steal a prescription pad and write out Rxs for Percocet to my friends. It's moral for a judge to sentence a person to prison; it's not moral for me to lock someone up in my basement because I think they're a menace to society. Every action taken by God is moral for God; every action that God wills for humans is moral for humans.

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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 10:25PM #115
Blü
Posts: 24,669

nieciedo


God has not willed us to sacrifice humans


On the contrary, the bible records at least five examples -


* Abraham and Isaac, which was only aborted when it was plain that otherwise it would happen as ordered.


* Jephthah and his daughter (Judges 11) where Jephthah entered into an agreement with Yahweh that if Yahweh gave him the victory, he'd give to Yahweh the first thing that came through his door at his homecoming as a burnt offering.  Yahweh gave him the victory then didn't intervene Isaacwise to prevent Jephthah's virgin daughter from being that first thing, so she was duly sacrificed. Yahweh accepted the sacrifice, and made Jephthah a Judge of Israel.


* The descendants of Saul (2 Samuel 21): Yahweh sent a drought and refused to lift it until David caused seven of Saul's innocent descendants to be hanged in Yahweh's presence to mitigate Saul's bloodguilt.


* Jonah, where Yahweh refused to abate the storm until the sailors threw Jonah into the sea as Jonah had told them to.  ONLY after that did Yahweh spare Jonah.


* Jesus.



If she was a legal adult and consented, sure.


She wasn't asked.  Her words of submission, not consent, came only after it was entirely a done deal.



However, is every act moral for every person?


If morals are absolute, it can be no other way.


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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 11:42PM #116
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

May 1, 2012 -- 10:25PM, Blü wrote:


nieciedo


God has not willed us to sacrifice humans


On the contrary, the bible records at least five examples -



*sigh*


I addressed Abraham immediately after the words you've quoted. My point, though, is that there is no commandment, no general imperative or permission for human sacrifice and there are prohibitions for murder. Moreover, sacrifices of any type are unnecessary in the New Covenant. 




If she was a legal adult and consented, sure.


She wasn't asked.  Her words of submission, not consent, came only after it was entirely a done deal.



Such is your interpretation. I and others interpret the text to be her consent to the deal. Oh well. We will have to disagree. 



However, is every act moral for every person?


If morals are absolute, it can be no other way.




That's a big "if." How do you know that morals are "absolute?" What does that mean? I offered examples of actions that are moral for some people but not for others. What do you think about those situations?

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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 11:47PM #117
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

Another example that is highly relevant to something that happened recently at work: it would be immoral for me to go through my coworker's desk and computer files; it is not immoral for our boss to do the same, especially if he suspects wrongdoing. 


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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 5:29AM #118
Kwinters
Posts: 20,993

May 1, 2012 -- 8:27PM, nieciedo wrote:


I do understand the purposes of a thought experiment. I LOVE thought experiments. But a flawed thought experiment is just as useful as a flawed non-thought experiment


May 1, 2012 -- 7:39PM, Kwinters wrote:


This implies that what god does is moral, since he is the source of morality. Therefore everything that god does is an example of a perfectly moral act. 



Agreed. Every action that God is depicted as engaging in is a perfectly moral act...for a God. Notice that I said the moral absolute is God's will. So, if God wills for humans to do something, that is moral; if God wills for humans not to do something, it is immoral. God has revealed some of the basic principles that determine His will - which we believe to be expressions of His nature - but the bottom line is that it is the will of God that determines morality.


Given that, murdering babies is moral because god did it.



Killing babies would be moral if God willed us to do it. There are specific situations in the Old Testament where that regrettably appears to be the case. However, there is not to my knowledge any general imperative to murder babies or permission to do so under the Sinai Covenant and certainly not under the New Covenant. God can kill whomever He likes - if you accept the theistic language, He is not only our Creator but the supremely just and supreme judge of all the world. But there are many things that God can do and that we can't: God can kill but also resurrect, for example.


Killing humans is moral because god did it.



That's a good question. I'm still trying to decide whether the New Covenant mandates, permits, or prohibits killing altogether and I know there have been disagreements in the church over this issue. I do know that God's will prohibits "murder," not killing. The Old Law instituted death penalties for various offenses and thus it was not immoral to carry them out provided the verdicts were justy determined. It was also a positive moral imperative for a person to kill an attacker that threatened his life in order to save himself. These were commands from God and thus they were moral. The Old Law also provided for just wars. The question is how much of this is applicable under the New Law. I'm still sorting this out, but I know that Christian scholars greater than me have argued that one is permitted to kill if there is no other way to preserve life (based on God's will); on the other hand there is the example of Jesus and the "turn the other cheek" teaching.


Human sacrifice is moral, because god did it.



God has not willed us to sacrifice humans, with the exception of Abraham where the operative word was "offer" but not "sacrifice" or "kill." The Israelites were commanded to sacrifice certain animals and were prohibited from offering any other sacrifices; Christians need no sacrifices.


So, I would say that human sacrifice is moral provided 1) you sacrifice yourself and 2) you happen to be God incarnate.


Getting unwed teenage girls pregnant is moral because god did it.



If she was a legal adult and consented, sure.


If god is the source of what is and isn't moral then shouldn't all his actions be perfect examples of perfect morality?




Yep. However, is every act moral for every person? It's moral for a doctor to prescribe medications based on the patient's need; it's not moral for me to steal a prescription pad and write out Rxs for Percocet to my friends. It's moral for a judge to sentence a person to prison; it's not moral for me to lock someone up in my basement because I think they're a menace to society. Every action taken by God is moral for God; every action that God wills for humans is moral for humans.





No, the issue is not about will.  It is about actions.


A perfectly moral being's actions are perfectly moral. Therefore when we do the same actions we are also committing a moral act.


If god is perfectly moral, and god kills babies, then killing babies is a moral act. There can be no contradiction between the morality of an action god does and an action a person does if god's actions are moral.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 5:31AM #119
Kwinters
Posts: 20,993

May 1, 2012 -- 11:47PM, nieciedo wrote:


Another example that is highly relevant to something that happened recently at work: it would be immoral for me to go through my coworker's desk and computer files; it is not immoral for our boss to do the same, especially if he suspects wrongdoing. 




Not at all the same thing.



Again, the proposition is that lying to god is always wrong.


If telling the truth to god would lead to the death of a baby would it be more moral to lie to god to protect the baby, or telling the truth with the result that god kills the baby?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 7:50AM #120
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,185

Quote:


' God can kill whomever He likes - if you accept the theistic language, He is not only our Creator but the supremely just and supreme judge of all the world. But there are many things that God can do and that we can't: God can kill but also resurrect, for example.'


I think Kwinters wrote this.


Where does it say that God can kill whomever he likes?


What a nightmarish concept of a Supreme Being is this?


This comes from the age when primitive man thought God sends thunder to frighten him because he was bad, crops cought fire  is punishment from God.Yell


 

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