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Switch to Forum Live View 1 Corinthians 6:9 - grounds for disfellowshipping from Jehovah's Witnesses
2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 4:52AM #1
Newtonian
Posts: 11,972
You all - I will try to post only a little for starters, as I am not sure actually posting the variant translations of this verse is permitted in this forum section.   Of course, with context and from our Bible translation for starters.


Feel free to post your favorite translation.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-11) . . .What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.


Indeed, Jehovah's Witnesses have left behind these sins but a few have resisted and unrepentantly continue in them, and they are disfellowshipped from our Christian congregations, for this reason:

(1 Corinthians 5:9-13) . . .In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10 not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”

Some have criticized us for disfellowshipping - however we do this because all of our beliefs and practices are Bible based.

There are many other cross references on this Biblical subject - here is one of the many:

(2 John 9-11) 9 Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works. 

From our website on this subject:

www.watchtower.org/e/19880415/article_01...
  

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 8:54AM #2
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

Newtonian,


While we're on the subject of wickedness, a fellow AA member with long term sobriety and who is also a former JW, once told me that JW's are forbidden to join Alcoholics Anonymous because we treat alcoholism as a disease rather than a moral issue, because we encourage newcomers to trust their own intuitve conception of God, because our only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking, and consequently we welcome all sorts of "wicked" people into our fellowship. He told me he snuck around to AA meetings for years, got caught several times, and eventually just accepted being disfellowshiped for joining us. And that, apparently, is entirely consistent with the Watchtower's opinion of what alcoholism is. I have searched the website for any articles dealing with AA specifically, and have found none. What is current JW policy on this?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 9:02AM #3
57
Posts: 22,168

Newtonian...why have they not kicked you out?  Are you not still a sinner?

Moderated by nanalulu222 on Apr 22, 2012 - 09:59AM
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 10:08AM #4
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

I am aware of no prohibition regarding AA.   I could not find any mention of 'forbidding' in our literature.  It would be what we call a 'decision of conscience' on each individual's part.


*** w93 8/15 p. 24 Succeeding in the Struggle With Alcoholism ***
There are many treatment centers, hospitals, and other recovery programs that can provide help. The Watchtower does not endorse any particular treatment. Care must be exercised so that one does not become involved in activities that would compromise Scriptural principles. In the final analysis, however, each will have to decide for himself what type of treatment is needed.


And we encourage getting professional help when needed.


*** w93 8/15 p. 24 Succeeding in the Struggle With Alcoholism ***
Realizing that he could not combat alcoholism alone, a man we may call Leo sought professional help. After a period of intensive treatment, he was on the road to recovery. Leo feels that the value of expert help cannot be overemphasized. If such help is locally available, you may decide to take advantage of it.

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 10:18AM #5
Johan Henze
Posts: 1,612

Apr 22, 2012 -- 4:52AM, Newtonian wrote:

You all - I will try to post only a little for starters, as I am not sure actually posting the variant translations of this verse is permitted in this forum section.   Of course, with context and from our Bible translation for starters.


Feel free to post your favorite translation.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-11) . . .What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.


Indeed, Jehovah's Witnesses have left behind these sins but a few have resisted and unrepentantly continue in them, and they are disfellowshipped from our Christian congregations, for this reason:

(1 Corinthians 5:9-13) . . .In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10 not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”


Some have criticized us for disfellowshipping - however we do this because all of our beliefs and practices are Bible based.

There are many other cross references on this Biblical subject - here is one of the many:

(2 John 9-11) 9 Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works. 

From our website on this subject:

www.watchtower.org/e/19880415/article_01...
  




>>Newtonian !


 


>>.Where does the Bible say you must NOT disfellowship and shun a  fellow JW and respect his wishes  who consciencely receive fractionated blood, but you MUST  disfellowship and shun  and NOT  respect a  fellow JW  wishes for receiving a component from blood ?   


>>I dont want your answer from some page in the WT I want it from a chapter and verse in the  Bible !  


 





The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or any set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men.No man,s opinion is expressed in the Watchtower WT 01/11 1931.P 327 If you believe that you will believe anything!
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 11:28AM #6
Kemmer
Posts: 16,265

I am aware of no prohibition regarding AA.   I could not find any mention of 'forbidding' in our literature.  It would be what we call a 'decision of conscience' on each individual's part.



But can you still be disfellowshipped for going swimming or playing basketball at the YMCA?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 1:19PM #7
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

I've never heard of being DF for joining the YMCA, although we do consider it an interfaith organization, as it does have 'roots' as an interfaith organization.


And you definitely cannot be DF for going to AA meetings.  I would not believe anyone who told me that THAT was the reason for their disfellowshipping.



As far as 'being sinners' and sins that would require being placed outside the Christian brotherhood, Joseph's story helps with this.  Although he was a human and a sinner like any other, he identified the activitiy that Potiphar's wife called upon him to share in, ' a great badness,' and a 'sin against God.'


www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gen...



We can't help being sinners.  We can help whether or not we commit 'great badness' or 'wicked things' and 'sin against God.' 

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 1:58PM #8
Upperlimits
Posts: 2,983

Apr 22, 2012 -- 1:19PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


I've never heard of being DF for joining the YMCA, although we do consider it an interfaith organization, as it does have 'roots' as an interfaith organization.





WOW! And to think that just a few weeks ago, going to the "Y" was considered apostacy!!


community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4...


My goodness! How quickly JW doctrine changes!

According to 2nd Corinthians 3:2, there are five gospels in the world. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the Epistle of ones own life.  Most people will probably never read the first four.

God desires that our lives would bear spiritual fruit - not religious nuts.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 2:04PM #9
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Apr 22, 2012 -- 1:58PM, Upperlimits wrote:


Apr 22, 2012 -- 1:19PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


I've never heard of being DF for joining the YMCA, although we do consider it an interfaith organization, as it does have 'roots' as an interfaith organization.





WOW! And to think that just a few weeks ago, going to the "Y" was considered apostacy!!


community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4...


My goodness! How quickly JW doctrine changes!





I made a statement of fact, UL.  I have never heard of it occuring.  I did not deny that we consider it to be an interfaith organization.  I was trying to stay on the theme of the thread, which got sidetracked rather quickly.


I would imagine that anyone who was a member of the YMCA, who came to learn that it was an interfaith organization by our understanding, would just let their membership lapse.  Now if someone wanted to be stubborn and keep the YMCA and let their membership with the congregation go by the wayside, they could make that choice, I've just never heard of it.


Anything to add on the actual subject Newtonian addresses?

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 2:31PM #10
Upperlimits
Posts: 2,983

Apr 22, 2012 -- 2:04PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


I made a statement ...


Anything to add on the actual subject Newtonian addresses?






OK - OK...Wink


As GTBH mentioned in post 4, "I could not find any mention of 'forbidding' in our literature."


I would have to concur with her statement. The WTS has a rather mixed review of groups like AA. As usual, they sit on the fence and neither endorse, nor condenm the group, merely using it as both a target, and a support for their position, as they find it useful.


DFing, while not explicitly recommended, is certainly justified in the following article.


*** w83 5/1 p. 10 Drinking Problems—What Can the Elders Do? ***
What about disfellowshipping? It boils down to this: What is the person’s attitude toward drinking? Does he, despite your patient but firm efforts to break through to reality, seem intent on continuing his drinking? In this connection, it is of interest to note what the book Alcoholics Anonymous advises employers of alcoholics:
“If you are sure your man does not want to stop, he may as well be discharged . . . Firing such an individual may prove a blessing to him. It may be just the jolt he needs.” Similarly, if the individual’s attitude requires that he be disfellowshipped to keep the congregation clean, this may at the same time be just the “jolt” he needs.



The following article casts a rather dim view on groups such as AA and similar models.


*** g91 1/22 p. 8 “It’s Not My Fault!”—The Age of Excuses ***
Consider, for example, the man who raped the same woman three times. He protested at his trial that he was the victim of his own male hormones; he had high levels of testosterone. He was acquitted. A politician who was caught lying blamed his perjury on an alcohol problem. A drug smuggler was acquitted after he claimed to be a victim of the “action-addict syndrome.”
According to U.S.News & World Report, more than 2,000 groups meet every week to counsel those who consider themselves to be sex or love addicts. Over 200 national organizations have patterned themselves on Alcoholics Anonymous to help the “victims” of other “addictions,” such as Batterers Anonymous, Gay Men’s Overeaters Anonymous, Gamblers Anonymous, Debtors Anonymous, Messies Anonymous, and Workaholics Anonymous.


Most references to AA and similar groups are decidedly neutral. This is one of the few positive references to AA. While the man doesn't state whether he is a member of JW's, it is clear that he found their information influential.


*** g84 11/22 p. 28 From Our Readers ***
Drugs and Alcohol
I am a retired judge and I feel that I should tell how useful your magazine was to me while I exercised my profession. In one criminal case dealing with the traffic and use of drugs, I was greatly aided by the facts presented in your magazine to make my decision, enabling me to sentence the drug peddler and to have him interned for treatment. On another occasion the magazines were of much assistance to me in preparing a discourse to be presented to Alcoholics Anonymous in my city on behalf of a campaign to recuperate alcoholics. Thank you very much.
J. A., Brazil


Here is an instance where they have been able to use the information given by AA to their own advantage in an article to bolster their position.


*** g82 7/8 p. 7 Alcoholism—The Facts, The Myths ***
Have others become increasingly concerned about your drinking? Be honest with yourself. ‘I can stop any time I want to,’ you might say. And you’re probably right. But “going on the wagon” is no test, because even the most advanced alcoholics can at times do that for a while. Besides, how do you feel during periods of abstinence—calm and relaxed or nervous and tense? Remember, the key is control. Thus the book Alcoholics Anonymous states: “If when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic.”


It was mentioned by Chrubino that alcoholism is generally viewed by JW's as a moral issue rather than a disease. That view seems to be supported in this article.


*** w74 8/1 p. 456 Insight on the News ***
Disease or Personality Problem?
● In Russia alcoholism is a serious problem. The official publication “Literaturnaya Rossiya” recently urged that it be confronted directly as a “disease,” not just a ‘hangover from Czarist times.’
Labeling alcoholism as a “disease” is popular elsewhere, approved even by Alcoholics Anonymous and the American Medical Association. Such designation supposedly frees the alcoholic from considerable shame and causes others to show greater sympathy. In the United States, it lets organizations treating alcoholics obtain federal funds—allocated for disease, not personality problems. Not all doctors, however, go along with labeling alcoholism a “disease.”
In his newspaper column, Dr. Theodore R. Van Dellen agrees that anyone drinking in excess and damaging his liver, brain or heart is indeed “sick.” “However,” he says, “somewhere along the line, habit, personality, character, and responsibility enter.”
Similarly, Dr. David M. Gimlett, writing in the “American Medical News,” warns that, in calling alcoholism a disease, “one runs the real risk of implying to patients and the treating personnel that the individual has no responsibility for his condition and that therefore assuming individual responsibility is not a necessary part of the ‘treatment.’”
In the first century, a doctor named Luke quoted Christ Jesus as saying: “Pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day [of Jehovah’s judgment] be instantly upon you as a snare.” (Luke 21:34, 35) Yes, the heart is the key to the problem, and where there is a true heart determination alcoholism can be overcome.



 

According to 2nd Corinthians 3:2, there are five gospels in the world. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the Epistle of ones own life.  Most people will probably never read the first four.

God desires that our lives would bear spiritual fruit - not religious nuts.
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