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Switch to Forum Live View 1 Corinthians 6:9 - grounds for disfellowshipping from Jehovah's Witnesses
2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 12:41PM #111
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

Sacre bleu.

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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 1:07PM #112
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

May 6, 2012 -- 12:05PM, Kemmer wrote:


This is the way of the lower Protestant sects; first the prime "guru" discovers an obscure passage or passages, usually in the OT or Rev.; second, by these passages he/they declare all other traditions have been in heresy for 2000 years and are probably under Satan's influence; third, disaffected/unattached to other traditions neophytes are gathered in a body; and lastly, the gates are closed and the new membership is forbidden to have any contact with outside religious organizations under pain of expulsion--which of course means "eternal" life for the outcast is toast.




And that is precisely why there can't possibly be a winner in proof-text poker, because each player brings to the table his own deck of marked cards and his own rules of the game.

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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 8:54PM #113
Svetlana
Posts: 11,286

May 6, 2012 -- 8:58AM, mrjordan wrote:


May 5, 2012 -- 10:32PM, Svetlana wrote:


My friend knew the truth and learned not to trust the WTS/GB.  The local leaders, not God, considered that unforgiveable and insisted that her family kick her out.  All elders don't do this, but many do, and that's the issue.




In concerning the sickness and the eventual death of a family member there is not reason why her family could not have told her about it.


If she had gone to the wedding in another church and the elders knew about it and if she repented and told the elders she'd never to it again, the most that might have happened is she would have been privately reproved. Not DF.


Since there is nothing at all wrong with going to a wedding in another church, there is nothing to repent!  The only sin she committed was to disobey the GB, she did nothing of which God disapproved.


As far going into a church, singing their songs, listening to their speeches etc. such things are acts of worship that Witnesses to not follow. There is no getting around the command to "Get out of her". We also cannot serve two masters. Mt 6:24. We can't have more than one form of worship to Jehovah. We can't do both the right way to worship and then turn around and practice the wrong one. Because the wrong act of worship isn't worshiping Jehovah at all. The bible is very clear on this.


Lutherans, as I said, teach things that we believe to be completely wrong. Such has hell fire. There is a thread on this board if you wish to know why we think hell fire is wrong. Witnesses shouldn't judge the people that are Lutherans, however we should want nothing to do with their teachings no matter what the event may be.



There is nothing about Babylon at all in the worship services of non-JW Christians.  There is nothing contrary to scripture, nothing displeasing to God.  Your leaders LIE about that, to keep you from learning that a spiritual relationship is very possible without them.  They LIE about what we believe and practice, and use those LIES as excuses to keep you out of non-JW churches.  They tell many lies about us to excuse their condemnation of us, and if you attend our services, you'll see just how false their lies, and their condemnation, are.  It really and truly is that simple.  SOME non-JWs believe in hellfire, and SOME don't (I know you are not allowed to accept that, but it remains the provable truth.  It's one of those things you'd learn in a non-JW service, that many don't believe in it, which is why you are not allowed to attend).  We in our church don't believe in it, and all you'll ever hear about it is pretty much the JW reasons for not believing in it.  Man, you'd REALLY get into trouble if you attended our church and reported that!!!  You'd be proving your leaders' lies as lies, and removing any excuse to keep other JWs out of my church.  Don't try it, your elders would be forced to DF you as severly as my friend was DF'd.


There is no excuse for JWs to stay out of our services.  There is nothing non-scriptural in any mainline service, and nothing done of which God would disapprove.  That SOME non-JWs believe in hell is no different than SOME JWs believing that all non-JWs will be killed at Armageddon (and yes, many of you do, once all the double-speak and innuendo is boiled out of your teachings.  That's been proved on this board alone.  It's EXACTLY what you are required to teach, however indirectly, we've all read the literature and know that, and we've all spoken to JWs who have taught that.  At least he hell-fire believers are more honest about it and don't wrap it all up in double-speak.).  You both (hell-fire believers and all-non-JWs-killed-at-Armageddon believers) have a lot of scripture to support your point of view, and you both condemn those who believe differently to a bad end.  That's merely a difference of opinion, there are those who don't believe either opinion in both groups, and none of it has anything to do with the worship service itself.  Even those who believe in hell don't preach it all the time, and both JW and non-JW worship services are (or should be) primarily about God, to such a degree that such differences don't matter.  If you believe that such a relatively minor difference (because it is NOT a part of worshipping God, it's merely an opinion of what might happen to some in the future) is that important, then you are NOT focussed on God, merely on differences of opinion.  That is NOT the right way to worship in any church.


There is no moral excuse to prohibit you from attending our services.  The prohibition and condemnation are based on lies founded in hatred.  That has been proved conclusively many times over (not just here).  All the WTS/GB can do now is to defend its hatred, and that won't be easy for a group that claims Christ as its head, or to be at all Christian.

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 9:32PM #114
Svetlana
Posts: 11,286

May 6, 2012 -- 8:58AM, mrjordan wrote:


We can't have more than one form of worship to Jehovah.


That's absurd, of course we can.  The only things necessary are praise of God and gratitude to Him.  As long as those are the most important things, nothing else matters.  Remember that to preach sin would be to contradict those two important things, so they are NOT examples to prove my point wrong.


We can't do both the right way to worship and then turn around and practice the wrong one. Because the wrong act of worship isn't worshiping Jehovah at all. The bible is very clear on this.



As I just said above, to contradict love and gratitude to God, which would include any absense of love for others or direct violation of His commandments, are the ONLY wrong way to worship, since they cancel out the only two things necessary.  Any WTS claim that non-JWs practice any contradiction is a flat-out, provable lie, so there is no danger of participating in a "wrong" way to worship God.


I should point out, too, that to dwell so adamantly on differences of opinion, when you SHOULD be focussing on God alone, is certainly the wrong way to worship in any religion anywhere.  That is what you claim you'd be doing in a Lutheran church, but that wrong way to worship would be you alone, you know.  The Lutherans are too busy praising God to worry how you might disagree with some of their opinions.  They'd be doing it RIGHT.


You won't agree with my standard of correct worship, and that's fine.  The point remains, however, that there is no wrong worship in a non-JW church.  Your leaders lie, too, in saying that non-JWs ignore or spite scripture, so of course, non-JWs will obey it to the best of their understanding.  As I keep pointing out, your leaders lie like rugs about us, and that alone is a sin, since all their lies are intended to hurt us and to keep brothers in Christ separated.


Your leaders cannot stand it that we ignore them absolutely.  They vent that frustration in the ever-escalating hatefulness of their lies.  Those lies will never affect us, they will hurt your leaders very much, but they hurt you, too.  We non-JWs, for the most part, are united in fellowship and worship and living our faiths, learning so much from one another and having each other's differences respected, not slandered.  In many ways, we learn of more ways to share God's love from one another and from our differences.  You JWs, on the other hand, are kept in spiritual isolation, required to listen mostly or only to your leaders, from whom you get nothing but an endless litany of lies and ugliness about all your other brothers in Christ.  So you really think that's spiritually healthy?  Do you really and truly believe that Christ approves?

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 5:59AM #115
mrjordan
Posts: 2,114

May 6, 2012 -- 9:32PM, Svetlana wrote:


May 6, 2012 -- 8:58AM, mrjordan wrote:


We can't have more than one form of worship to Jehovah.


That's absurd, of course we can.  The only things necessary are praise of God and gratitude to Him.  As long as those are the most important things, nothing else matters.  Remember that to preach sin would be to contradict those two important things, so they are NOT examples to prove my point wrong.


We can't do both the right way to worship and then turn around and practice the wrong one. Because the wrong act of worship isn't worshiping Jehovah at all. The bible is very clear on this.



As I just said above, to contradict love and gratitude to God, which would include any absense of love for others or direct violation of His commandments, are the ONLY wrong way to worship, since they cancel out the only two things necessary.  Any WTS claim that non-JWs practice any contradiction is a flat-out, provable lie, so there is no danger of participating in a "wrong" way to worship God.


I should point out, too, that to dwell so adamantly on differences of opinion, when you SHOULD be focussing on God alone, is certainly the wrong way to worship in any religion anywhere.  That is what you claim you'd be doing in a Lutheran church, but that wrong way to worship would be you alone, you know.  The Lutherans are too busy praising God to worry how you might disagree with some of their opinions.  They'd be doing it RIGHT.


You won't agree with my standard of correct worship, and that's fine.  The point remains, however, that there is no wrong worship in a non-JW church.  Your leaders lie, too, in saying that non-JWs ignore or spite scripture, so of course, non-JWs will obey it to the best of their understanding.  As I keep pointing out, your leaders lie like rugs about us, and that alone is a sin, since all their lies are intended to hurt us and to keep brothers in Christ separated.


Your leaders cannot stand it that we ignore them absolutely.  They vent that frustration in the ever-escalating hatefulness of their lies.  Those lies will never affect us, they will hurt your leaders very much, but they hurt you, too.  We non-JWs, for the most part, are united in fellowship and worship and living our faiths, learning so much from one another and having each other's differences respected, not slandered.  In many ways, we learn of more ways to share God's love from one another and from our differences.  You JWs, on the other hand, are kept in spiritual isolation, required to listen mostly or only to your leaders, from whom you get nothing but an endless litany of lies and ugliness about all your other brothers in Christ.  So you really think that's spiritually healthy?  Do you really and truly believe that Christ approves?




Did Jesus practice wrong forms of worship to Jehovah?

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 9:32AM #116
Kemmer
Posts: 16,443

Did Jesus practice wrong forms of worship to Jehovah?



Yes, and the apostles disfellowshipped him for it until he repented and payed his fine.


(What sort if a ridiculous question is that?)

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 10:44AM #117
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

May 7, 2012 -- 9:32AM, Kemmer wrote:


Did Jesus practice wrong forms of worship to Jehovah?



Yes, and the apostles disfellowshipped him for it until he repented and payed his fine.


(What sort if a ridiculous question is that?)




Oh, I don't think it's a ridiculous question at all. It's the sort of gauntlet question that founders of a new religious movement love to throw out to the madding crowd, and whoever takes the bait is a potential convert.

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 1:01PM #118
AnnOMaly
Posts: 3,202

Did Jesus practice wrong forms of worship to Jehovah?



By later Christian standards, yes, LOL. Unless you believe that ancient Judaism is still an acceptable form of worship to Jehovah ...


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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 2:14PM #119
Kemmer
Posts: 16,443

May 7, 2012 -- 1:01PM, AnnOMaly wrote:


Did Jesus practice wrong forms of worship to Jehovah?



By later Christian standards, yes, LOL. Unless you believe that ancient Judaism is still an acceptable form of worship to Jehovah ...




Let's face it: unless you're sitting in a 21st century KH and studying the WT ALL worship past and present is WRONG.

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 7:57PM #120
Svetlana
Posts: 11,286

May 7, 2012 -- 2:14PM, Kemmer wrote:


May 7, 2012 -- 1:01PM, AnnOMaly wrote:


Did Jesus practice wrong forms of worship to Jehovah?



By later Christian standards, yes, LOL. Unless you believe that ancient Judaism is still an acceptable form of worship to Jehovah ...




Let's face it: unless you're sitting in a 21st century KH and studying the WT ALL worship past and present is WRONG.



Exactly.  Given the complete destruction and incorrect recreation of what Jesus did at the Last Supper that the WTS/GB calls its "Memorial Service", I'd say that that even proves that the WTS/GB consider that Jesus did it all wrong.


Jesus was a devout Jew, and no KH practices as Jews do, so the question is absurd.  Jesus is certainly present in non-JW churches, His presence can be felt, and He is NOT unhappy.  Again, the claims to the contrary by the WTS/GB are demonstrably false, and based on hatefulness.  They are lies, the leaders know they are lies, know they are hateful, but they insist upon them.


Matthew 12:32 says "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come."  To call the peace and presence of God that non-JWs feel as coming from Satan is blasphemy.  To call the work of the Holy Spirit the work of Satan, as the WTS/GB do to explain away that sense of the presence of God, is the unforgivable sin.  I don't think that matters, because the WTS/GB aren't at all likely to repent of this sin.  Many JWs do, and they are disfellowshipped for it.

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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