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2 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 2:30PM #11
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

No  the welfare state does NOT create dependency. And if it worked really well, people would get educated through it, so that all people could get decent jobs.


The idea that welfare creates dependency is a talking point that is the lie that too many people have fallen for.


Oddly those who fall for it the most are those who should, through their chosen religion should be supporting rather then arguing against.



A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 3:10PM #12
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Apr 21, 2012 -- 2:30PM, mainecaptain wrote:


No  the welfare state does NOT create dependency. And if it worked really well, people would get educated through it, so that all people could get decent jobs.


The idea that welfare creates dependency is a talking point that is the lie that too many people have fallen for.


Oddly those who fall for it the most are those who should, through their chosen religion should be supporting rather then arguing against.






NO, its a proven economic model. If it does not, then why are there so many third and fourth generation welfare recipients?

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 3:45PM #13
SecondSonOfDavid
Posts: 3,344

My first thought is ... what a mess.


The title of the thread seemr to imply that there is a contradiction between being Christian and being Capitalist.  I disagree, but will return to that point.


First off, throughout history the government has always done a very poor job of raising standards of living.  The problem is not just that men in power generally seek to use their power to benefit their own families and friends, but also that most politicians have a poor grasp of economics.


Economics, at its essence, studies the movement of money.  That movement is Commerce, and all Commerce comes down to creating trade for goods or services.  By definition, all government activity regarding money is parasitic by nature, as it removes money from the flow of Commerce.  That does not mean Government is essentially bad, nor does it mean that government efforts to help a segment of the population are ill-advised in general, but it does mean that most government use of resources takes away from what the public may otherwise do with those resources.


History shows that when an individual or small group gains absolute control of strategic resources, the general population suffers, which is why we have anti-Trust laws.  Also, there are some activities which need to be regulated because they are dangerous (like refineries) or prone to destructive behavior if they are not regulated (like mining).


Individuals generally need to work.  Work for people generally falls into one of three categories - those who work for someone else, whose who provide a professional service, and those who create their own business.  The first is the most secure but generally pays the least, the second requires years of preparation and certification, generally pays well compared to average wages but risks becoming obsolete, and the third may make a man rish, or cost him everything if the business fails.  The essence of Capitalism is that an invidual is free to puruse any of those avenues, or a mix of them.   There is, conceptually,  no minimum right to benefit, nor a maximum.  In practice, companies must provide working conditions which meet statutory standards and pay at least a minimum wage.  The chief limit fo wealth which may be accrued is through taxes, although a person may be assessed fines and penalties if they violate the law in gaining wealth.


It is the rich who create jobs, pursue new technologies, and help direct the economies of the world to their next stage of growth.  Obviously, the rich are also able to unduly influence political decisions, persuade local and state governments to give them advantages, or treat ordinary people like disposable machines.  This is where individual participation in grassroots politics is essential, but that discussion is for another place.


Welfare is a double-edged sword, much like prison.  Some people who receive welfare are able to get through the hard time and get back on their feet, but the system is not focused on creating personal independence.  Rather, far too often those who receive welfare are less and less able to escape the system.  As Dave noted, there is compelling demographic evidence that welfare recipients generally are unable to escape.  This is not to pretend that people are welfare are inferior or less worthy; rather, the essential problem is that the system focuses only on short-term needs rather than in creating a proactive mindset and effective career plan.   


That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 4:22PM #14
Eliascomes
Posts: 976

Apr 21, 2012 -- 3:10PM, davelaw40 wrote:


Apr 21, 2012 -- 2:30PM, mainecaptain wrote:


No  the welfare state does NOT create dependency. And if it worked really well, people would get educated through it, so that all people could get decent jobs.


The idea that welfare creates dependency is a talking point that is the lie that too many people have fallen for.


Oddly those who fall for it the most are those who should, through their chosen religion should be supporting rather then arguing against.






NO, its a proven economic model. If it does not, then why are there so many third and fourth generation welfare recipients?




 Everyone are recipients to one another. The Judicial system needs violators of the law, The Medical Industries needs those that are unhealthy or injured, and the Social service association need the unfortunates or the mentally challenge. I know that we are having a serious economic issues. But we shouldn't point at the weak for solving the problem that the strong had created. It was our Greed and self indulgence spirits which cause our problem which we're having. I know some that are on Government Assistance are drugs abusers, but how did these recipients travel to get the drugs or engineered these drugs while lacking knowledge and money. People have to stop casting stones at one another, especially at the weak. We all made everyone dependants of money, even the the Bush tribes of Africa are following in our foot steps; What are we going to called them when they becomes totally dependants, "Lazy, no good Bums". Even though they take care of their families without using money, but we want everyone to jump on our Band-Wagon so we can have someone to talk about.   

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 8:20AM #15
Sparky_Spotty
Posts: 761

Apr 21, 2012 -- 11:18AM, davelaw40 wrote:


job training? sounds like local government helping their citizens not Federal Government destroying local accountability




Wait, first welfare creates dependancy, but now its ok because its local government?


You Americans are strange sometimes.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 9:14AM #16
57
Posts: 23,028

Apr 21, 2012 -- 12:54PM, Eliascomes wrote:


Matthew 5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,  for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


Matthew 26:11 The poor you will always have with you,  but you will not always have me.


Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.


Matthew 7    9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!


 God want us to not  get caught up with the things of this world.





You forgot one 2 thes 3:10


For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order, if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.



Reading this thread it sound like many out there who just want a wealthy man to fork over his money...because he has it...despite the fact they are lazy and choose not to work. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 10:28AM #17
dio
Posts: 4,928

If Christianity doesn't advocate for the poor, the poor will continue to be trampled on supressed cheated and swindeled.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 10:34AM #18
dio
Posts: 4,928

Apr 22, 2012 -- 9:14AM, 57 wrote:


Apr 21, 2012 -- 12:54PM, Eliascomes wrote:


Matthew 5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,  for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


Matthew 26:11 The poor you will always have with you,  but you will not always have me.


Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.


Matthew 7    9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!


 God want us to not  get caught up with the things of this world.





You forgot one 2 thes 3:10


For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order, if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.



Reading this thread it sound like many out there who just want a wealthy man to fork over his money...because he has it...despite the fact they are lazy and choose not to work. 




2 Thes 3:10 is not the word of God Jesus or ever Paul, it is generally thought to be pseudopigraphy by Biblical scholars. Not the word of God.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 11:06AM #19
amcolph
Posts: 17,475

Apr 22, 2012 -- 10:34AM, dio wrote:

Apr 22, 2012 -- 9:14AM, 57 wrote:


You forgot one 2 thes 3:10


For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order, if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.



Reading this thread it sound like many out there who just want a wealthy man to fork over his money...because he has it...despite the fact they are lazy and choose not to work. 




2 Thes 3:10 is not the word of God Jesus or ever Paul, it is generally thought to be pseudopigraphy by Biblical scholars. Not the word of God.





Doesn't matter.  Notice the operative phrase "...willing to work..."


That there are large numbers of the poor who are unwilling to work is a Conservative fantasy.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 12:23PM #20
dio
Posts: 4,928

Kudos to the catholic bishops who scolded Rep. Ryann for trying to cut benefits for the poor and needy. How much money do the multi rich need to add to their wealth each year? enough is enough who needs a million dollars a year income to survive? anyone who is fortunate to make that kind of income should be taxed 100%.

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