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Switch to Forum Live View Lyin' 'bout denyin'
3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 3:08PM #1
Kwinters
Posts: 22,219
Matthew:

Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Later:

Now Peter was sitting without in the court: and a maid came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus the Galilaean. But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and saith unto them that were there, This man also was with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied with an oath, I know not the man. And after a little while they that stood by came and said to Peter, Of a truth thou also art one of them; for thy speech maketh thee known. Then began he to curse and to swear, I know not the man. And straightway the cock crew. And Peter remembered the word which Jesus had said, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Given the first, shouldn't Jesus have held Peter accountable for his denial?  I mean, there is no get-out-clause in the first, so was Jesus lying or bluffing? 
Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 3:28PM #2
Seefan
Posts: 3,969

Apr 19, 2012 -- 3:08PM, Kwinters wrote:

Matthew:

Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Later:

Now Peter was sitting without in the court: and a maid came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus the Galilaean. But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and saith unto them that were there, This man also was with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied with an oath, I know not the man. And after a little while they that stood by came and said to Peter, Of a truth thou also art one of them; for thy speech maketh thee known. Then began he to curse and to swear, I know not the man. And straightway the cock crew. And Peter remembered the word which Jesus had said, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Given the first, shouldn't Jesus have held Peter accountable for his denial?  I mean, there is no get-out-clause in the first, so was Jesus lying or bluffing? 



Jesus wasn't lyin' 'bout denyin'
Peter was lyin' 'bout believin' ...


But he did so to fulfill prophecy ...


Probably a way of showing the believers that they don't know their own hearts or actions until tested ...


 

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 4:01PM #3
lope
Posts: 11,783

Apr 19, 2012 -- 3:08PM, Kwinters wrote:

Matthew:

Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Later:

Now Peter was sitting without in the court: and a maid came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus the Galilaean. But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and saith unto them that were there, This man also was with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied with an oath, I know not the man. And after a little while they that stood by came and said to Peter, Of a truth thou also art one of them; for thy speech maketh thee known. Then began he to curse and to swear, I know not the man. And straightway the cock crew. And Peter remembered the word which Jesus had said, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Given the first, shouldn't Jesus have held Peter accountable for his denial?  I mean, there is no get-out-clause in the first, so was Jesus lying or bluffing? 



There is always a get out clause with a forgiving and loving Creator.  All sins including denial as Peter did can be forgiven if one repents.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 4:23PM #4
Eliascomes
Posts: 994

Apr 19, 2012 -- 3:08PM, Kwinters wrote:

Matthew:

Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Later:

Now Peter was sitting without in the court: and a maid came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus the Galilaean. But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and saith unto them that were there, This man also was with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied with an oath, I know not the man. And after a little while they that stood by came and said to Peter, Of a truth thou also art one of them; for thy speech maketh thee known. Then began he to curse and to swear, I know not the man. And straightway the cock crew. And Peter remembered the word which Jesus had said, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Given the first, shouldn't Jesus have held Peter accountable for his denial?  I mean, there is no get-out-clause in the first, so was Jesus lying or bluffing? 



Jesus knew that the one he named "Peter", was going to denied knowing Him. Jesus knew later on, that Peter will start acknowledging Him, after He had risen; and even all the rest of them, also. They had fasted or circumcised themselve from this world and start following the path of Jesus.


Matthew 9:15 Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.


Acts 2:14  Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 4:26PM #5
SecondSonOfDavid
Posts: 3,344

The OP is a good question.  But it's also important to ask what God wants.  He's not waiting to trick people so He can destroy them.  So, there's a lesson here and it's our job to learn it.


Consider this - when Jesus was brought back to life, the first of the disciples He asked to see was Peter.  Perhaps because He knew Peter would be hurting the most for his denial.  


If you focus on the compassion, you won't miss the meaning.

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 5:13PM #6
Kwinters
Posts: 22,219

Apr 19, 2012 -- 3:28PM, Seefan wrote:


Apr 19, 2012 -- 3:08PM, Kwinters wrote:

Matthew:

Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Later:

Now Peter was sitting without in the court: and a maid came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus the Galilaean. But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and saith unto them that were there, This man also was with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied with an oath, I know not the man. And after a little while they that stood by came and said to Peter, Of a truth thou also art one of them; for thy speech maketh thee known. Then began he to curse and to swear, I know not the man. And straightway the cock crew. And Peter remembered the word which Jesus had said, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Given the first, shouldn't Jesus have held Peter accountable for his denial?  I mean, there is no get-out-clause in the first, so was Jesus lying or bluffing? 



Jesus wasn't lyin' 'bout denyin'
Peter was lyin' 'bout believin' ...


But he did so to fulfill prophecy ...


Probably a way of showing the believers that they don't know their own hearts or actions until tested ...





Mmm, you haven't actually addressed the paradox....

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 5:15PM #7
Kwinters
Posts: 22,219

Apr 19, 2012 -- 4:01PM, lope wrote:


Apr 19, 2012 -- 3:08PM, Kwinters wrote:

Matthew:

Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Later:

Now Peter was sitting without in the court: and a maid came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus the Galilaean. But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and saith unto them that were there, This man also was with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied with an oath, I know not the man. And after a little while they that stood by came and said to Peter, Of a truth thou also art one of them; for thy speech maketh thee known. Then began he to curse and to swear, I know not the man. And straightway the cock crew. And Peter remembered the word which Jesus had said, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Given the first, shouldn't Jesus have held Peter accountable for his denial?  I mean, there is no get-out-clause in the first, so was Jesus lying or bluffing? 



There is always a get out clause with a forgiving and loving Creator.  All sins including denial as Peter did can be forgiven if one repents.




So when Jesus says if X then Y he is lying? They are just idle threats?  Are you going to claim that the unforgivable sin is also forgivable?


There is a credibility deficit here.  

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 5:20PM #8
Kwinters
Posts: 22,219

Apr 19, 2012 -- 4:23PM, Eliascomes wrote:


Jesus knew that the one he named "Peter", was going to denied knowing Him. Jesus knew later on, that Peter will start acknowledging Him, after He had risen; and even all the rest of them, also. They had fasted or circumcised themselve from this world and start following the path of Jesus.




If that is the case then Jesus knew he was lying when he said what is says in Matthew, so why say something that isn't true?


And if it is not the case, then no Christian should ever have died when they were asked to deny Jesus. They should just deny him, live, and then say sorry later, right? We can ignore all this, right: If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you .(John 15:20)


No Christian ever has to stand up for their belief in Jesus because they can deny him and say they didn't mean it later, right?


That is, of course, the consequence of your reading.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 6:35PM #9
Ruhi19
Posts: 535

Apr 19, 2012 -- 3:08PM, Kwinters wrote:

Matthew:

Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Later:

Now Peter was sitting without in the court: and a maid came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus the Galilaean. But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and saith unto them that were there, This man also was with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied with an oath, I know not the man. And after a little while they that stood by came and said to Peter, Of a truth thou also art one of them; for thy speech maketh thee known. Then began he to curse and to swear, I know not the man. And straightway the cock crew. And Peter remembered the word which Jesus had said, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Given the first, shouldn't Jesus have held Peter accountable for his denial? I mean, there is no get-out-clause in the first, so was Jesus lying or bluffing?




Hello, Ms. Winters,


You do ask interesting questions. My responses are as follows:


1. We don't know what Peter's reception was when he met Jesus after his last breath.


2. When humanity repents and turns to God once again, his remorse is accepted.  God continually asks humanity to return to God and promises compassion when he does return to God:


Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.  22  Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.


Acts 8:21-22 


 


For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.


NT -  1 Peter 2:25


 


Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


HB - Isaiah 1:18-20


3. If the person has repented before his last breath, then he approaches God in belief reaping the reward promised for believing in God (in many verses).  The threat is for those who do not repent or who, changing their mind at the last moment, turn from God before they die so that they cannot claim that promise of life (spiritual life) after death (spiritual death is turning from God and physical death would be the separation of the body from the soul).


4. I also think that God is using Peter as a symbol for humanity here.  Humanity denies God’s Manifestation three times before finally coming to believe in God. The verses to prove that would require a great deal of space, however, so I won’t try to prove it. 


 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 6:36PM #10
Eliascomes
Posts: 994

Apr 19, 2012 -- 5:20PM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 19, 2012 -- 4:23PM, Eliascomes wrote:


Jesus knew that the one he named "Peter", was going to denied knowing Him. Jesus knew later on, that Peter will start acknowledging Him, after He had risen; and even all the rest of them, also. They had fasted or circumcised themselve from this world and start following the path of Jesus.




If that is the case then Jesus knew he was lying when he said what is says in Matthew, so why say something that isn't true?


And if it is not the case, then no Christian should ever have died when they were asked to deny Jesus. They should just deny him, live, and then say sorry later, right? We can ignore all this, right: If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you .(John 15:20)


No Christian ever has to stand up for their belief in Jesus because they can deny him and say they didn't mean it later, right?


That is, of course, the consequence of your reading.




Mark 8:35 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.


Matthew 10:16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.


Romans 12:1  Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.


Matthew 10:14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.


asher.wrytestuff.com/swa377923.htm


www.theblaze.com/stories/wv-students-out...


 True Christians have to keep God's word in this world or it would be just a memory. There's a lot of people will not let the Believer make it to first base so that they can cast Him out permanently.



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