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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 11:49AM #41
mecdukebec
Posts: 14,632

Apr 20, 2012 -- 11:37AM, Kemmer wrote:


...however some protestant groups consider the Catholic church to be Babylon the Great, etc.  What do you believe?



In 2008, many believed that about the Bush administration.




And, the fundagelical churches preaching "You can't be a Christian if you don't believe in God, George W. Bush, and war." went into apostasy with same.  The demonic is always present (demonic in the Tillich sense), an insight from biblical times still current today. 

*******

"Wesley told the early Methodists to gain all they could and save all they could so that they could give all they could. It means that I consider my money to belong to God and I see myself as one of the hungry people who needs to get fed with God’s money. If I really have put all my trust in Jesus Christ as savior and Lord, then nothing I have is really my own anymore."
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 12:05PM #42
Newtonian
Posts: 12,179

Apr 20, 2012 -- 11:21AM, AnnOMaly wrote:


How on earth do you jump from a fulfilment in the first century (at the mouths of the apostles) to 1931!!?


Rutherford seized the name 'Jehovah's witnesses' (note lower case 'w') to further distance Watchtower movement #2.0 from Russell and Watchtower movement #1.0.





Simple, Ann.   First century Christians were not called by the Divine Name.  Many prophecies have a minor fulfillment in the first century, but a major or more complete fulfillment in these last days.   Mt. 24:14 for example.  


It all has to do with the increased light as per Proverbs 4:18. 


Jehovah's Witnesses are called by the Divine Name - simple enough?

Also, you are focussing on what this one (Russell) or that one (Rutherford) believed - I am focussing on the actual wording of the Bible prophecy, which you omitted in your reponse quote of me as if I had not quoted the prophecy itself.


Again:



(Acts 15:14-18) . . .Sym′e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.’


Quoting:


(Amos 9:11, 12) 11 “‘In that day I shall raise up the booth of David that is fallen, and I shall certainly repair their breaches. And its ruins I shall raise up, and I shall certainly build it up as in the days of long ago, 12 to the end that they may take possession of what is left remaining of E′dom, and all the nations upon whom my name has been called,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, who is doing this.


Yes, a minor fulfillment in the first century, as Jesus confirmed twice in his prayer to Jehovah in John 17 that he had made his Father's name known to his disciples.   However, they were not actually called by the Divine Name.


This did not occur until 1931 - and Rutherford did not quote this prophecy as the reason because it was not Rutherford who actually caused the prophecy to be fulfilled.   Both quotes confirm it is Jehovah who did this, not any man or any human organization.


So who are called by that name?   Upon whom has the Divine Name been called?


And why wasn't it that God's people were counted worthy of bearing the Divine Name until 1931?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 12:13PM #43
Kemmer
Posts: 16,488

It all has to do with the increased light



Doesn't it always...!  JWs depend on God furnishing updates and corrections to their "discreet slave".  Christians are not so theoretical.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 12:20PM #44
Newtonian
Posts: 12,179

Apr 20, 2012 -- 12:13PM, Kemmer wrote:


It all has to do with the increased light



Doesn't it always...!  JWs depend on God furnishing updates and corrections to their "discreet slave".  Christians are not so theoretical.




Spot on Kemmer!   We do depend on God furnishing updates - it was Jehovah who caused Amos 9:12 to be fulfilled. 


So, who are called by the Divine Name as foretold in Amos 9:12 and Acts 15:17?


Who are the people for this name, as stated in Acts 15:14?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 12:22PM #45
Newtonian
Posts: 12,179

Apr 20, 2012 -- 11:49AM, mecdukebec wrote:


Apr 20, 2012 -- 11:37AM, Kemmer wrote:


...however some protestant groups consider the Catholic church to be Babylon the Great, etc.  What do you believe?



In 2008, many believed that about the Bush administration.




And, the fundagelical churches preaching "You can't be a Christian if you don't believe in God, George W. Bush, and war." went into apostasy with same.  The demonic is always present (demonic in the Tillich sense), an insight from biblical times still current today. 




And Christendom had made full use of war throughout history - in contrast Jehovah's Witnesses are enjoying the fulfillment of Isaiah 2:2-4 including learning war no more!

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 12:28PM #46
Kemmer
Posts: 16,488

And Christendom had made full use of war throughout history - in contrast Jehovah's Witnesses are enjoying the fulfillment of Isaiah 2:2-4 including learning war no more!



In the comforting knowledge that non-JWs will feed and protect them from adversaries even though the JWs condemn them for doing so.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 12:43PM #47
mecdukebec
Posts: 14,632

Apr 20, 2012 -- 12:22PM, Newtonian wrote:


Apr 20, 2012 -- 11:49AM, mecdukebec wrote:


Apr 20, 2012 -- 11:37AM, Kemmer wrote:


...however some protestant groups consider the Catholic church to be Babylon the Great, etc.  What do you believe?



In 2008, many believed that about the Bush administration.




And, the fundagelical churches preaching "You can't be a Christian if you don't believe in God, George W. Bush, and war." went into apostasy with same.  The demonic is always present (demonic in the Tillich sense), an insight from biblical times still current today. 




And Christendom had made full use of war throughout history - in contrast Jehovah's Witnesses are enjoying the fulfillment of Isaiah 2:2-4 including learning war no more!





Intentionally, I composed a statement that left someone wide open to step into the irony that "Everyone participates in the demonic, but not us."  You walked right into it. 

*******

"Wesley told the early Methodists to gain all they could and save all they could so that they could give all they could. It means that I consider my money to belong to God and I see myself as one of the hungry people who needs to get fed with God’s money. If I really have put all my trust in Jesus Christ as savior and Lord, then nothing I have is really my own anymore."
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 12:46PM #48
Newtonian
Posts: 12,179

Apr 20, 2012 -- 12:28PM, Kemmer wrote:


And Christendom had made full use of war throughout history - in contrast Jehovah's Witnesses are enjoying the fulfillment of Isaiah 2:2-4 including learning war no more!



In the comforting knowledge that non-JWs will feed and protect them from adversaries even though the JWs condemn them for doing so.




We do not condemn them for doing so - where did you get that idea from?


Off topic, but we appreciate the superior authorities bearing the sword, as per Romans 13 -


(Romans 13:1-4) . . .Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. 3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. DoThus you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.


However, true Christians are no part of this world and we do not avenge ourselves nor return evil for evil, as the verses that immediately precede this show:


(Romans 12:17-21) . . .Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” 20 But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.


Thus those who Jehovah have chosen to be called by his name are appropriately those who also enjoy the miraculous fulfillment of Isaiah 2:2-4, to wit:


(Isaiah 2:2-4) And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 12:58PM #49
Newtonian
Posts: 12,179

Apr 20, 2012 -- 12:43PM, mecdukebec wrote:


Apr 20, 2012 -- 12:22PM, Newtonian wrote:


Apr 20, 2012 -- 11:49AM, mecdukebec wrote:


Apr 20, 2012 -- 11:37AM, Kemmer wrote:


...however some protestant groups consider the Catholic church to be Babylon the Great, etc.  What do you believe?



In 2008, many believed that about the Bush administration.




And, the fundagelical churches preaching "You can't be a Christian if you don't believe in God, George W. Bush, and war." went into apostasy with same.  The demonic is always present (demonic in the Tillich sense), an insight from biblical times still current today. 




And Christendom had made full use of war throughout history - in contrast Jehovah's Witnesses are enjoying the fulfillment of Isaiah 2:2-4 including learning war no more!





Intentionally, I composed a statement that left someone wide open to step into the irony that "Everyone participates in the demonic, but not us."  You walked right into it. 




Almost true, Mec!   We do not, however, claim to be the only ones who abstain from war.  E.g.: the Bahai World Faith, the Jains, Quakers and the Amish, Christadelphians - did I miss a group?


Jesus taught his followers to be no part of this world - in part because Satan is the ruler of this world, according to Jesus. (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11) Indeed, the fact that God's Kingdom is no part of this world is another reason we do not go to war (besides, for example, Mt. 5:44 where Jesus commands us to love our enemies), to wit:


(John 18:36) Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”


So what in the world is more demonic than war - see my thread on the catastrophe of 1914 as H. G. Wells reported.


Back to thread theme - would God allow bloodguilty religions to bear his name?  (See Revelation 18:24)


Who, in fact, are called by God's name as foretold in Amos 9:12 and Acts 15:17?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 1:00PM #50
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

Apr 20, 2012 -- 12:46PM, Newtonian wrote:



However, true Christians are no part of this world...




Yeah, right.

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