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Switch to Forum Live View Who really started the jw's?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 1:14PM #51
Newtonian
Posts: 11,220

Apr 20, 2012 -- 1:00PM, cherubino wrote:


Apr 20, 2012 -- 12:46PM, Newtonian wrote:



However, true Christians are no part of this world...




Yeah, right.




Ah - we agree finally!   As Jesus said in his prayer to Jehovah:


(John 17:14-17) 14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 15 “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 1:33PM #52
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

Apr 20, 2012 -- 1:14PM, Newtonian wrote:



Ah - we agree finally!   As Jesus said in his prayer to Jehovah:


(John 17:14-17) 14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 15 “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.




Amazing that he spoke English so well, isn't it?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 1:52PM #53
Newtonian
Posts: 11,220

Funny Cherubino!Laughing


Of course, Jesus spoke Greek, to wit:


Joh 17:14


(ABP+)  IG1473 have givenG1325 to themG1473 G3588 your word;G3056 G1473 andG2532 theG3588 worldG2889 detestedG3404 them,G1473 forG3754 they are notG3756 G1510.2.6 ofG1537 theG3588 world,G2889 asG2531 IG1473 am notG3756 G1510.2.1 ofG1537 theG3588 world.G2889


(ABP-G+)  εγωG1473 δεδωκαG1325 αυτοιςG1473 τονG3588 λογον σουG3056 G1473 καιG2532 οG3588 κοσμοςG2889 εμισησενG3404 αυτουςG1473 οτιG3754 ουκ εισινG3756 G1510.2.6 εκG1537 τουG3588 κοσμουG2889 καθωςG2531 εγωG1473 ουκ ειμιG3756 G1510.2.1 εκG1537 τουG3588 κοσμουG2889


They are not of the world


ouk (not) eisen ek tou kosmou (world) - do you wish a more complete translation?


Btw - ouch is also not in Greek!Surprised


I mean, ouch is in Greek but it is not!Undecided


Er - I mean ouch means not in Greek!Laughing


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 2:05PM #54
AnnOMaly
Posts: 3,087

First century Christians were not called by the Divine Name.



So the apostles were wrong to apply Amos' prophecy about the nations being called by God's name to the first century Gentiles?


Oh dear. *Yoda voice* A slippery slope for you is that one.


Many prophecies have a minor fulfillment in the first century, but a major or more complete fulfillment in these last days.



But not necessarily that one.


(Acts 2:14-21) . . .: “Men of Ju·de′a and all YOU inhabitants of Jerusalem, let this be known to YOU and give ear to my sayings. 15 These [people] are, in fact, not drunk, as YOU suppose, for it is the third hour of the day. 16 On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel, 17 ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh,. . . 21 And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”’


Mt. 24:14 for example.



And I'll raise you:


(Colossians 1:23) . . .the hope of that good news which YOU heard, and which was preached in all creation that is under heaven. . . .


It all has to do with the increased light as per Proverbs 4:18.



No it doesn't. The increased light of Prov. 4:18 is to do with moral/ethical/behavioral enlightenment - not doctrinal.


(1 Corinthians 13:9-12) 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. ... ... 12 For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known.


Jehovah's Witnesses are called by the Divine Name - simple enough?



So?


I am focussing on the actual wording of the Bible prophecy ...



Really?


... which you omitted in your reponse quote of me as if I had not quoted the prophecy itself.



I omitted nothing. You would already know the scriptural text(s) I was alluding to so I needn't have spelled it out for you, surely.


So who are called by that name? Upon whom has the Divine Name been called?



People can call themselves anything they like. It doesn't necessarily mean that God was behind it, otherwise you'd have to accept the Sacred Name Movement and Assemblies of Yahweh as your spiritual kin, yes?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 3:17PM #55
mecdukebec
Posts: 14,039

Apr 20, 2012 -- 12:58PM, Newtonian wrote:


Apr 20, 2012 -- 12:43PM, mecdukebec wrote:


Apr 20, 2012 -- 12:22PM, Newtonian wrote:


Apr 20, 2012 -- 11:49AM, mecdukebec wrote:


Apr 20, 2012 -- 11:37AM, Kemmer wrote:


...however some protestant groups consider the Catholic church to be Babylon the Great, etc.  What do you believe?



In 2008, many believed that about the Bush administration.




And, the fundagelical churches preaching "You can't be a Christian if you don't believe in God, George W. Bush, and war." went into apostasy with same.  The demonic is always present (demonic in the Tillich sense), an insight from biblical times still current today. 




And Christendom had made full use of war throughout history - in contrast Jehovah's Witnesses are enjoying the fulfillment of Isaiah 2:2-4 including learning war no more!





Intentionally, I composed a statement that left someone wide open to step into the irony that "Everyone participates in the demonic, but not us."  You walked right into it. 




Almost true, Mec!   We do not, however, claim to be the only ones who abstain from war.  E.g.: the Bahai World Faith, the Jains, Quakers and the Amish, Christadelphians - did I miss a group?


Jesus taught his followers to be no part of this world - in part because Satan is the ruler of this world, according to Jesus. (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11) Indeed, the fact that God's Kingdom is no part of this world is another reason we do not go to war (besides, for example, Mt. 5:44 where Jesus commands us to love our enemies), to wit:


(John 18:36) Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”


So what in the world is more demonic than war - see my thread on the catastrophe of 1914 as H. G. Wells reported.


Back to thread theme - would God allow bloodguilty religions to bear his name?  (See Revelation 18:24)


Who, in fact, are called by God's name as foretold in Amos 9:12 and Acts 15:17?




In other words, you're asserting, "We're the ones Jesus was talking about because we said so."  I've never understood the power of circular reasoning, esp. because it's nonsense. 

*******

"Wesley told the early Methodists to gain all they could and save all they could so that they could give all they could. It means that I consider my money to belong to God and I see myself as one of the hungry people who needs to get fed with God’s money. If I really have put all my trust in Jesus Christ as savior and Lord, then nothing I have is really my own anymore."
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 3:45PM #56
Newtonian
Posts: 11,220

Apr 20, 2012 -- 2:05PM, AnnOMaly wrote:


First century Christians were not called by the Divine Name.



So the apostles were wrong to apply Amos' prophecy about the nations being called by God's name to the first century Gentiles?


Oh dear. *Yoda voice* A slippery slope for you is that one.


Many prophecies have a minor fulfillment in the first century, but a major or more complete fulfillment in these last days.



But not necessarily that one.


(Acts 2:14-21) . . .: “Men of Ju·de′a and all YOU inhabitants of Jerusalem, let this be known to YOU and give ear to my sayings. 15 These [people] are, in fact, not drunk, as YOU suppose, for it is the third hour of the day. 16 On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel, 17 ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh,. . . 21 And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”’


Mt. 24:14 for example.



And I'll raise you:


(Colossians 1:23) . . .the hope of that good news which YOU heard, and which was preached in all creation that is under heaven. . . .


It all has to do with the increased light as per Proverbs 4:18.



No it doesn't. The increased light of Prov. 4:18 is to do with moral/ethical/behavioral enlightenment - not doctrinal.


(1 Corinthians 13:9-12) 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. ... ... 12 For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known.


Jehovah's Witnesses are called by the Divine Name - simple enough?



So?


I am focussing on the actual wording of the Bible prophecy ...



Really?


... which you omitted in your reponse quote of me as if I had not quoted the prophecy itself.



I omitted nothing. You would already know the scriptural text(s) I was alluding to so I needn't have spelled it out for you, surely.


So who are called by that name? Upon whom has the Divine Name been called?



People can call themselves anything they like. It doesn't necessarily mean that God was behind it, otherwise you'd have to accept the Sacred Name Movement and Assemblies of Yahweh as your spiritual kin, yes?




Ann - You omitted nothing?   Now I pointed out you omitted the wording of the prophecy - and again you omit the wording of the prophecy. 


Now, you really have no excuse whatsoever - and,  to still claim you omit nothing?  Preposterous!


Again I ask you, who are called by the Divine Name as these paralell prophecies state:


(Acts 15:14-18) 14 Syme·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.’


(Amos 9:11, 12) . . .“‘In that day I shall raise up the booth of David that is fallen, and I shall certainly repair their breaches. And its ruins I shall raise up, and I shall certainly build it up as in the days of long ago, 12 to the end that they may take possession of what is left remaining of E′dom, and all the nations upon whom my name has been called,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, who is doing this.


I will give you another chance to stop omitting what the Bible prophecy actually states.


This is thread theme, btw.   Who did this?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 7:09PM #57
Kemmer
Posts: 15,711

Apr 20, 2012 --  9:46AM, Newtonian wrote:


However, true Christians are no part of this world...



Easy to say for a group without the wherewithall to build churches, schools, and colleges in the "mission fields"; just going door-to-dooor annnouncing that everyone who doesn't become a JW is soon going to die.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 8:15AM #58
AnnOMaly
Posts: 3,087

We're going around in circles again, Newt. You've re-posted the same info (and accusation about an omission) you gave in post #42, to which I already responded. As usual, you've ignored the points made in my response and repeated your original argument.


C'est la vie.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 9:06AM #59
Kemmer
Posts: 15,711

Er - I mean ouch means not in Greek!Laughing



Actually, δεν means 'not' in Greek.

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