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Switch to Forum Live View The Koranic View of the Torah
2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 3:51AM #41
Ibn
Posts: 4,748

Apr 25, 2012 -- 7:43AM, ffb wrote:


Ibn --


thank you for the explanation. there seems to be a separate notion of "corrupt" in terms of the precision of the words and the importance of the message. i had not seen this before, so i appreciate the clarification.


On a side note, you quoted something which leads me to a couple fo questions:


"


[5.68] Say: O followers of the Book! You follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people."


I pick up 2 things from this and wanted to check them with 1.


 1. does this mean that according to the Koran, a Jew should accept the gospels (the use of the word "and" between Taurat and Injeel, or that a Jew can reject the gospels (the use of the words "to you")?


2. is this verse saying that by following what is given, many will be moved further from belief (at least in the Koranic theology)? Why encourage people to fololow a path which will lead away from belief?



Rejecting whole of the Torah, Gospels or the Qur'an is not an option for anyone. All of us (Jews, Christians and Muslims) must believe that these revelations are from G-d. Gospels are not really rejection of the Law but these were clarification of the Law for the Jews (Christians did not exist at the time). What happened later is another story.


The way I understood the verse of the Qur'an is that the Message delivered by Moses (Taurat), Jesus (Injeel) and Muhammad (peace be on them) is, in each case, from G-d. This is the starting point for us all (at least for Muslims). Therefore, the Jews are directed to keep up with the Taurat and Christians are directed to keep up with the Gospels, and both groups are to take notice of the revelation of the Qur'an because it is clarified in the Qur'an where the the two groups (the Jews and the Christians) differ in their belief (such as the Jews not believing in Jesus as a messenger and the Christians thinking that Jesus is God). The verse says that many of the both the Jews and the Christians are not going to be happy with what is revealed to you (Muhammad) and, because of their unhappiness regarding the revelation of the Qur'an (and in opposition to it), many of them are going to go further into disbelief. Basically, Jews and the Christians are also directed to believe that the revelation of the Qur'an is from G-d and take notice of what the Qur'an clarifies regarding their differences (which could be due to either the corruption of the text or gradual development of theology).


FYI, M. Asad (an ex Jew who translated and interpreted the whole Qur'an) has translated the verse as:


Say: "O followers of the Bible! You have no valid ground for your beliefs - unless you [truly] observe the Torah and the Gospel, and all that has been bestowed from on high upon you by your Sustainer! Yet all that has been bestowed from on high upon thee [O Prophet] by thy Sustainer is bound to make many of them yet more stubborn in their overweening arrogance and in their denial of the truth. But sorrow not over people who deny the truth:


Therefore, by asking the Jews and the Christian to observe the Torah and the Gospels, it is clear that, regardless of the question of texual corruption or development of theology, there is still enough truth in these books for both the Jews and the Christians to follow/observe to be righteous people provided they also take notice of what they are directed, through the Qur'an, not to do.


Instead of sticking to just one book, I see directions in every revelation as to what G-d wants from us all. We need to concentrate on directions in revelations rather than divide ourselves (as human beings) by our egos and envy of eack other. I don't think that was the purpose of any revelation from G-d to mankind. 


I trust that this explains the verse to your satisfaction.


Peace


Ibn

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 9:03AM #42
ffb
Posts: 2,164

Apr 26, 2012 -- 3:51AM, Ibn wrote:

Apr 25, 2012 -- 7:43AM, ffb wrote:


Ibn --


thank you for the explanation. there seems to be a separate notion of "corrupt" in terms of the precision of the words and the importance of the message. i had not seen this before, so i appreciate the clarification.


On a side note, you quoted something which leads me to a couple fo questions:


"


[5.68] Say: O followers of the Book! You follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people."


I pick up 2 things from this and wanted to check them with 1.


 1. does this mean that according to the Koran, a Jew should accept the gospels (the use of the word "and" between Taurat and Injeel, or that a Jew can reject the gospels (the use of the words "to you")?


2. is this verse saying that by following what is given, many will be moved further from belief (at least in the Koranic theology)? Why encourage people to fololow a path which will lead away from belief?



Rejecting whole of the Torah, Gospels or the Qur'an is not an option for anyone. All of us (Jews, Christians and Muslims) must believe that these revelations are from G-d. Gospels are not really rejection of the Law but these were clarification of the Law for the Jews (Christians did not exist at the time). What happened later is another story.


The way I understood the verse of the Qur'an is that the Message delivered by Moses (Taurat), Jesus (Injeel) and Muhammad (peace be on them) is, in each case, from G-d. This is the starting point for us all (at least for Muslims). Therefore, the Jews are directed to keep up with the Taurat and Christians are directed to keep up with the Gospels, and both groups are to take notice of the revelation of the Qur'an because it is clarified in the Qur'an where the the two groups (the Jews and the Christians) differ in their belief (such as the Jews not believing in Jesus as a messenger and the Christians thinking that Jesus is God). The verse says that many of the both the Jews and the Christians are not going to be happy with what is revealed to you (Muhammad) and, because of their unhappiness regarding the revelation of the Qur'an (and in opposition to it), many of them are going to go further into disbelief. Basically, Jews and the Christians are also directed to believe that the revelation of the Qur'an is from G-d and take notice of what the Qur'an clarifies regarding their differences (which could be due to either the corruption of the text or gradual development of theology).


FYI, M. Asad (an ex Jew who translated and interpreted the whole Qur'an) has translated the verse as:


Say: "O followers of the Bible! You have no valid ground for your beliefs - unless you [truly] observe the Torah and the Gospel, and all that has been bestowed from on high upon you by your Sustainer! Yet all that has been bestowed from on high upon thee [O Prophet] by thy Sustainer is bound to make many of them yet more stubborn in their overweening arrogance and in their denial of the truth. But sorrow not over people who deny the truth:


Therefore, by asking the Jews and the Christian to observe the Torah and the Gospels, it is clear that, regardless of the question of texual corruption or development of theology, there is still enough truth in these books for both the Jews and the Christians to follow/observe to be righteous people provided they also take notice of what they are directed, through the Qur'an, not to do.


Instead of sticking to just one book, I see directions in every revelation as to what G-d wants from us all. We need to concentrate on directions in revelations rather than divide ourselves (as human beings) by our egos and envy of eack other. I don't think that was the purpose of any revelation from G-d to mankind. 


I trust that this explains the verse to your satisfaction.


Peace


Ibn


It is interesting but, just to put my thinking in context, the way that Torah verses are explicated, every single word and idea is parsed. The statement "observe the Torah and the Gospel, and all that has been bestowed from on high upon you " lends itself to two contradictory interpretations so I am trying to get a sense of the directive. Either it means that both groups must fully observe both texts, or each group should only observe its own text. That may not be the standard method of breaking down Koranic verses into much more precise levels of linguistic intent so my entire approach may not fit in. I understand that the idea is "understand your book/s and then look to the Koran to resolve some ideas" and that this will annoy some "believers" but I'm just trying to get a handle on the precise words.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 3:01PM #43
IDBC
Posts: 4,468

Howdy


I am probably wrong, or at least "anal"  but it is my understanding that the topic of this thread is the Koranic view on the Taurat.   It is NOT about the Koranic view of the Injeel.  


What is clear to this gentile-kufur is that there are differences and similarities.   


What is clear to this gentile-kurfur is that Muslims believe that the Torah as it existed from at least the time of Muhammad has be changed.    


What is clearto this gentile-kufur is that Jews disagree that there has been any significant change in the Torah since the time of Moses.  


What is also clear to this gentile-kufur  is that the Torah and the Quran are not the ONLY sources of literature used by Jews and Chrisitans. 


What is also clear this gentile-kufur is that both Jews and Muslims have been very, very naughty at times.   


What is also clear to this gentile-kufur is that the Torah and the Quran has been and probably will be....abused.     


  


This is what the Quran or English translations of the Quran say about the Torah


 www.quranexplorer.com/Search/?q=Torah&Su...


 There are a total of 87 references to the Torah in the Koran.  Although some of them are duplicates, or repetions of others.   


The first one says:


Sura 3 - Al-E-Imran (MADINA) : Verse 48 And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel.  


I think it is safe to say that the "Gospel" being referenced is NOT the contempory "Gospel". 


Muslims make the claim that there was a "Gospel" that Jesus taught, however they have no written copy of the Gospel of Jesus.    I am fairly certain that Muslims would not want Jews to follow the Gospels as they currently exist.  I am very, very certain that mainstream religous Jews use contemporary Gospels as a source of wisdom and or guidance.     


 


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 6:28PM #44
ffb
Posts: 2,164

IDBC, this is a DI board so my question was geared towards the Islamic (and/or Koranic) view of changes in text vs. changes in what what taught vs. emedations, and anything else as it related to the Jewish bible. Any view of the gospels is completely incidental, so please understand that there is no intention to question or involve the gospels per se.


You do make 1 statement that you might want to reconsider (and post on the Discuss Judaism board). You state "I am very, very certain that mainstream religous Jews use contemporary Gospels as a source of wisdom and or guidance."


Assuming by "contemporary gospels" you mean the section often called the "New Testament" then you are wrong. Mainstream religious Jews do not use contemporary gospels at all. If you wish to discuss this, I feel that the DJ board is better suited.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 9:16PM #45
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,616

FFB


I am unaware of any Jews who use the Christian Gospels for any purpose whatsoever.  (Outside of interfaith dialogue and understanding)

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 12:14AM #46
IDBC
Posts: 4,468

 


Howdy ffb


Apr 26, 2012 -- 6:28PM, ffb wrote:


IDBC, this is a DI board so my question was geared towards the Islamic (and/or Koranic) view of changes in text vs. changes in what what taught vs. emedations, and anything else as it related to the Jewish bible. Any view of the gospels is completely incidental, so please understand that there is no intention to question or involve the gospels per se. 


xt


I understand that the questions are geared towards the Islamic(and or Koranic) view between the texts of the Quran and the texts of the Torah.  Whatever "emendations"  that the Quran alleges were made to the Torah are just allegations so far as I am concerned.  Until Muslims can produce a copy of a Torah that is earilier than the at least the Dead Sea Scrolls it is just an "allegation".   For example there is not Torah text in existence that states that Ishameal was the one who was to be sacrficed.   


Another "problem" that I noticed is that the Koran only makes reference to "the Torah" and "the Pslams.  It claims that only the emendations-changes that were made was to "the Torah".   


It is my understanding that "the Torah" refers to the first five books of the Tankah-Hebrew Bible.   


Apr 26, 2012 -- 6:28PM, ffb wrote:

 


You do make 1 statement that you might want to reconsider (and post on the Discuss Judaism board). You state "I am very, very certain that mainstream religous Jews use contemporary Gospels as a source of wisdom and or guidance."



I do not know which post # where I stated "I am very, very certain that mainstream religous Jews use contemporary Gospels as a source of wisdom and or guidance."


However if I did make such a statement I would definitly reconsider it and re-state  


"I am very, very certain that mainstream religous Jews do NOT use contemporary Gospels as a source of wisdom and or guidance."


Mainstream religious Jews no more use the Gospels as a source of wisdom and guidance than the use the Quran as a source of wisdom of guidance. 


Apr 26, 2012 -- 6:28PM, ffb wrote:


Assuming by "contemporary gospels" you mean the section often called the "New Testament" then you are wrong. Mainstream religious Jews do not use contemporary gospels at all. If you wish to discuss this, I feel that the DJ board is better suited.




I agree completly that "Mainstream religious Jews do not use contemporary gospels at all."


Just as "The Torah"  is only part of the Hebrew-Jewish bible, "The Gospels" are only part of the "New-Christian Bible".    Just as the Quran only makes reference to "The Torah-Pslams" it only makes reference to the "Gospels". 


Just as there are no copies of the un-changed Torah, there are no copies of the un-changed gospels.  


I do agree that "the gospels"-New-Christian Testament are "incidental" to this discussion.  


It is my understanding that at the time of Muhammad there were two "Torahs"  floating around. 


One in Greek, the Septugiant and one in Hebrew.  I do not know which one the Quran was making reference too or if it was making reference to an different allegedly "unchanged"  Torah. 


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 3:52AM #47
Ibn
Posts: 4,748

Apr 26, 2012 -- 9:03AM, ffb wrote:

It is interesting but, just to put my thinking in context, the way that Torah verses are explicated, every single word and idea is parsed. The statement "observe the Torah and the Gospel, and all that has been bestowed from on high upon you " lends itself to two contradictory interpretations so I am trying to get a sense of the directive. Either it means that both groups must fully observe both texts, or each group should only observe its own text. That may not be the standard method of breaking down Koranic verses into much more precise levels of linguistic intent so my entire approach may not fit in. I understand that the idea is "understand your book/s and then look to the Koran to resolve some ideas" and that this will annoy some "believers" but I'm just trying to get a handle on the precise words.


I believe the main idea is to believe and observe what is revealed by G-d to human beings.


The sequence is, believe and observe the revelation through Moses and the prophets, and believe and observe that was revealed through Jesus (which verified what was revealed through Moses and the prophets), and then believe and observe what is revealed through Muhammad (i.e. the Qur'an) which verifies was revealed before it of the revelation through Moses and revelation through Jesus.


As to your point of Torah verses being explicated and every single word and idea being parsed, does not mean that it is the end of the revelation from G-d as if G-d tied up His hands by revealing the Torah and He is not going to take anything out of it or add anything in it. As I explained earlier in one of my posts, adding or subtracting by people from the revelation is prohibited by G-d but G-d has not prohibited Himself from doing so. G-d has the Power to do so. So please do not regard that G-d has tied up His hands with the revelation of the Torah. He can expend whatever He likes.


[5.64] And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are spread out, He expends as He pleases; and what has been revealed to you from your Lord will certainly make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; and We have put enmity and hatred among them till the day of resurrection; whenever they kindle a fire for war Allah puts it out, and they strive to make mischief in the land; and Allah does not love the mischief-makers.


So, I would say that the followers of Torah should pay regard to the revelation through Jesus and observe if anything has been changed/improved by G-d on the Torah revelation. This is because of the simple fact that it is from the same G-d as is the Torah from. And if one does not believe in the revelation through Jesus then at least observe the Torah. The same applies to both the Jews and the Christians to believe in the revelation through Muhammad and observe the laws in the Qur'an, and if they do not believe that the revelation of the Qur'an is from G-d then at least observe the laws in the Torah and the Injeel respectively.


In the Qur'an, the door does not close on Torah and the Gospels but is still left open for the following reason:


[5.48] And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;


The above does not mean that that it is the only purpose but also to try the people as to which ones of us will believe in all the revelations from G-d and which of us human beings will reject some revelations.


[5.65] And if the followers of the Book had believed and guarded (against evil) We would certainly have covered their evil deeds and We would certainly have made them enter gardens of bliss


[5.66] And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do.


Of course there is more to it than we often perceive but the above is enough to be digested for the time being.


I trust that I have tried to clarify one or two points in this post for your benefit. 

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 9:15AM #48
ffb
Posts: 2,164

Apr 27, 2012 -- 3:52AM, Ibn wrote:

Apr 26, 2012 -- 9:03AM, ffb wrote:

It is interesting but, just to put my thinking in context, the way that Torah verses are explicated, every single word and idea is parsed. The statement "observe the Torah and the Gospel, and all that has been bestowed from on high upon you " lends itself to two contradictory interpretations so I am trying to get a sense of the directive. Either it means that both groups must fully observe both texts, or each group should only observe its own text. That may not be the standard method of breaking down Koranic verses into much more precise levels of linguistic intent so my entire approach may not fit in. I understand that the idea is "understand your book/s and then look to the Koran to resolve some ideas" and that this will annoy some "believers" but I'm just trying to get a handle on the precise words.


I believe the main idea is to believe and observe what is revealed by G-d to human beings.


The sequence is, believe and observe the revelation through Moses and the prophets, and believe and observe that was revealed through Jesus (which verified what was revealed through Moses and the prophets), and then believe and observe what is revealed through Muhammad (i.e. the Qur'an) which verifies was revealed before it of the revelation through Moses and revelation through Jesus.


As to your point of Torah verses being explicated and every single word and idea being parsed, does not mean that it is the end of the revelation from G-d as if G-d tied up His hands by revealing the Torah and He is not going to take anything out of it or add anything in it. As I explained earlier in one of my posts, adding or subtracting by people from the revelation is prohibited by G-d but G-d has not prohibited Himself from doing so. G-d has the Power to do so. So please do not regard that G-d has tied up His hands with the revelation of the Torah. He can expend whatever He likes.


[5.64] And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are spread out, He expends as He pleases; and what has been revealed to you from your Lord will certainly make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; and We have put enmity and hatred among them till the day of resurrection; whenever they kindle a fire for war Allah puts it out, and they strive to make mischief in the land; and Allah does not love the mischief-makers.


So, I would say that the followers of Torah should pay regard to the revelation through Jesus and observe if anything has been changed/improved by G-d on the Torah revelation. This is because of the simple fact that it is from the same G-d as is the Torah from. And if one does not believe in the revelation through Jesus then at least observe the Torah. The same applies to both the Jews and the Christians to believe in the revelation through Muhammad and observe the laws in the Qur'an, and if they do not believe that the revelation of the Qur'an is from G-d then at least observe the laws in the Torah and the Injeel respectively.


In the Qur'an, the door does not close on Torah and the Gospels but is still left open for the following reason:


[5.48] And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;


The above does not mean that that it is the only purpose but also to try the people as to which ones of us will believe in all the revelations from G-d and which of us human beings will reject some revelations.


[5.65] And if the followers of the Book had believed and guarded (against evil) We would certainly have covered their evil deeds and We would certainly have made them enter gardens of bliss


[5.66] And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do.


Of course there is more to it than we often perceive but the above is enough to be digested for the time being.


I trust that I have tried to clarify one or two points in this post for your benefit. 


Thank you for this -- it does clarify the points very well. Any response I have would be in the realm of overall faith and theology and would stary far afield of the intended thread. I will leave you with one thought to give you an idea of how a religious Jew might perceive your statement about Judaism accepting later "revelations" as authoritative. God gave Christians the Book of Mormon so they would know how Jews feel. I think it can be expanded to say "God gave Islam the Book of Mormon..." to the same effect. If you say god's hands are not tied, then anyone's claim of later revelation is as valid. But that's a discussion for another day. Thank you for walking me through these ideas.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 9:19AM #49
ffb
Posts: 2,164

"Another "problem" that I noticed is that the Koran only makes reference to "the Torah" and "the Pslams.  It claims that only the emendations-changes that were made was to "the Torah".   



It is my understanding that "the Torah" refers to the first five books of the Tankah-Hebrew Bible.   "


 


I cannot speak to the intent of the Koran -- it is using a word to encompass an idea. The word Torah can refer to the 5 books, the entire written text (5 books, prophets, writings -- the Tanach) or the entire of the written and oral torahs taken as a whole. Since there are 3 different uses (at least), there is room for variant understandings.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 10:35AM #50
BDboy
Posts: 5,298

Apr 27, 2012 -- 9:19AM, ffb wrote:


"Another "problem" that I noticed is that the Koran only makes reference to "the Torah" and "the Pslams.  It claims that only the emendations-changes that were made was to "the Torah".   



It is my understanding that "the Torah" refers to the first five books of the Tankah-Hebrew Bible.   "


 


I cannot speak to the intent of the Koran -- it is using a word to encompass an idea. The word Torah can refer to the 5 books, the entire written text (5 books, prophets, writings -- the Tanach) or the entire of the written and oral torahs taken as a whole. Since there are 3 different uses (at least), there is room for variant understandings.




 


>>>>>>> I am aware that Ibn is discussing this topic with you.


Just wanted to share a web based link, which talks about Islamic view of the Jewish tradition. Since we have "Common roots" there are times when we talk about OT and NT as examples to understand "Islamic point of view". Please click here

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