Post Reply
Page 7 of 11  •  Prev 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 ... 11 Next
Switch to Forum Live View The Koranic View of the Torah
2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 9:07AM #61
ffb
Posts: 2,218

"Moses was talking to - YHWH?  Hashem, Elohim ..... As far as I know from a highly accomplished direct experiencer, such statement as "I am, that I am",  "I was here, before everything existed"  and the likes of these, could only come from what is known in the Al-Quran as Gabriel. "


Moses was talking to god. The three labels you list are for the same entity. In Judaism, god has many labels, each pointing to a particular facet of character. So you ask to whom Mo was talking and the answer is clear -- god, but whatever label you choose to employ. Strictly speaking, "hashem" is not a label for a facet of god, but a way that we avoid saying another of the labels. That god is "known" as Gabriel doesn;t make muchsense to me as Gabriel is a name we use for a distinct angelic figure.


"If God spoke directly to Moses, in what forms?  Written on stones?  Papyrus? Date leaves and trunks?   That is magic to me, as Moses turned his stick to snakes."


He spoke in words. Moses wrote on the equivalent of vellum. There is no magic. There are miracles.


"Saying godly doesn't mean Moses received every thing from God.   And reading certain part of Genesis, to be honest, I was put off.  The picture painted by the words as scribed is as though there was Adam as the first Man created on Earth.   To me that's magic."..."And after several thousand years, I don't think Judaism has any view at all in the revelations of their prophets. "


It does mean that to me, and to me it is an important aspect of faith in the veracity and authority of the text, including that of the prophets."


"What is the name of the God that spoke to Moses?  What exactly you mean by "transcribed"?


Again, we don't ascribe a singular personal name to god. We have labels to aspects so asking the particular name makes no sense in Judaism. By transcribed I mean god dictated and Mo wrote. Once I can wrap my brain around that, why would I have trouble assuming Mo wrote more quickly than I could? Why be selective in my belief in the miraculous. People ask "how can you believe that all the animals fit on Noah's ark?" I say "once I accept he had a conversation with god, why do I then suspend that belief because of size limitations?"

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 2:25PM #62
visio
Posts: 3,389

May 3, 2012 -- 9:07AM, ffb wrote:


"Moses was talking to - YHWH?  Hashem, Elohim ..... As far as I know from a highly accomplished direct experiencer, such statement as "I am, that I am",  "I was here, before everything existed"  and the likes of these, could only come from what is known in the Al-Quran as Gabriel. "


Moses was talking to god. The three labels you list are for the same entity. In Judaism, god has many labels, each pointing to a particular facet of character. So you ask to whom Mo was talking and the answer is clear -- god, but whatever label you choose to employ. Strictly speaking, "hashem" is not a label for a facet of god, but a way that we avoid saying another of the labels. That god is "known" as Gabriel doesn;t make muchsense to me as Gabriel is a name we use for a distinct angelic figure.



I am familiar with this kind of thoughtline.  We see it in certain school of Hinduism where in what you described above are specific names given to a God of specific, individuated attributes such as God of War, God of Wisdom, God of Wealth, God of Love ... and thousands of those.   These are what are referred to Gods that mankind had them named.   And That One God/ALLAHswt of the Al-Quran has made it an issue with all the angels that it is those individuated God they named that they finally worshipped.  Many of those individual pick anyone of those Names/labels/Attributes to worship/pray to and taken as their personal God.   In reality, those Gods are non existent.  I am not to sure by your non-clear, restricted-like or calculatively cautious  description, in Judaism, you do the same.  One may argue that in Islam there are 99 names/attributes of ALLAHswt.  However one of those i.e. ALLAHswt is a coded name that serves to indicate THAT ONE (undescribable, knowable) DIVINE - the absolute source of all that exists, is the focus of worship, prayer, supplication in Islam.  The rest of the 98 Names are just words of praise which THAT ONE DIVINE itself had revealed them in the al-Quran as IT's attributes.  For simplicity sake, Gabriel is not "god".  Generally Muslims would say Gabriel is a "veil" of ALLAHswt.  The reality is Gabriel also is not the "veil" of ALLAHswt.   The veil of ALLAHswt. as in the case of Muhammadsaw. whenever he was in the Presence of ALLAHswt, was (Perfectly purified soul of Muhammad + Gabriel) as a SINGLE PERSON or a SINGLE LIGHT OF ASCENT.  So, if you are assuming that Islam/Al-Quran/Muslims regards Gabriel as a god, then you are mistaken/misunderstood.  Gabriel in it's truest sense of the Al-Quran is only a companion guardian angel which is hooked up to every single on eof us.   The SINGLE LIGHT OF ASCENT is true and proper angel of the Al-Quran as that, in Prophet Muhammadsaw's Ascension (Mi'raj) account, changing batches of 70,000, constantly crossing the other side of your Moses Big Mirror.  


And so, what distinction of angelic figure are you talking of Gabriel, if you don't mind describing.   


 

"If God spoke directly to Moses, in what forms?  Written on stones?  Papyrus? Date leaves and trunks?   That is magic to me, as Moses turned his stick to snakes."


He spoke in words. Moses wrote on the equivalent of vellum. There is no magic. There are miracles.



I see.   So YHWH spoke in words.   Moses wrote those words down, at such a fantastic speed, and that was a miracle.  That is as good as saying YHWH who was doing the miracle.


And I am wondering, why didn't YHWH simply make one wholebook of Torah to descend from the sky and catch it with his two hands from the sky? That would save a lot of Moses's energy.


And by the time Moses finished scribing, YHWH was gone and Moses struggled to explain what he wrote down.  He forgot so many things that they have to be re-authored.        


"Saying godly doesn't mean Moses received every thing from God.   And reading certain part of Genesis, to be honest, I was put off.  The picture painted by the words as scribed is as though there was Adam as the first Man created on Earth.   To me that's magic."..."And after several thousand years, I don't think Judaism has any view at all in the revelations of their prophets. "


It does mean that to me, and to me it is an important aspect of faith in the veracity and authority of the text, including that of the prophets."



And you are not interested in the originator of the text be they God, Angel, Jinn or Man? 


"What is the name of the God that spoke to Moses?  What exactly you mean by "transcribed"?


Again, we don't ascribe a singular personal name to god. We have labels to aspects so asking the particular name makes no sense in Judaism.



Yes,  what makes sense to Judaism is, at the blink of an eye, there you have one whole book of the Torah and .......Genesis. Scribed by Moses himself.  


 


By transcribed I mean god dictated and Mo wrote.



And more write at a miraculous speed.  So much so, that even god forgot to get hi /her name dictated and scribed.   Was god honest or Moses dishonest? 


Once I can wrap my brain around that, why would I have trouble assuming Mo wrote more quickly than I could? Why be selective in my belief in the miraculous. People ask "how can you believe that all the animals fit on Noah's ark?" I say "once I accept he had a conversation with god, why do I then suspend that belief because of size limitations?"



Please don't overload in order to response to my silly silly, way out questions. I did that, even to my late spiritual mentor who inspite of having (spiritually) witnessed many things what prophets, saints and sages couldn't even penned down what he had witnessed.   There was one little poem which took him over a couple of weeks to recollect and finally dictated it for me to write up.  And I am sorry, your story of Mo writng down his Torah doesn't buy me.


What makes you think that the Noah's story isn't talking about the spirits of those animals? And now I am saying it to you - there are eight pairs of cattle in you.  What sense have you in the statement?  Yet, it is in the Al-Quran.   May be not in your scriptures.  


  

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 3:01PM #63
ffb
Posts: 2,218

"I am not to sure by your non-clear, restricted-like or calculatively cautious  description, in Judaism, you do the same"


In Judaism we recognize that the labels are all ways of referring to the one and we worship the one even if our language specifies one part or another. The idea that god is at all fractured or split into parts which can then be isolated and made the object of prayer is counter to judaism.


"Moses wrote those words down, at such a fantastic speed, and that was a miracle.  That is as good as saying YHWH who was doing the miracle."


God was. Who said otherwise?


"And I am wondering, why didn't YHWH simply make one wholebook of Torah to descend from the sky and catch it with his two hands from the sky? That would save a lot of Moses's energy."


the process of writing down is an important part of establishing the text, especially one that was designed to be transmitted through writing.


"And by the time Moses finished scribing, YHWH was gone and Moses struggled to explain what he wrote down.  He forgot so many things that they have to be re-authored. "


I'm not sure where you get this. While there are rabbinic ideas that Mo did forget certain elements of the oral law, we have no tradition that he forgot or had to struggle to explain the written text. So I don;t know why you would introduce this as some sort of aspect of what I wrote.


"And you are not interested in the originator of the text be they God, Angel, Jinn or Man?"


Who said I wasn't. Since I have faith that the originator is god, I don't see what you are asking.


"at the blink of an eye, there you have one whole book of the Torah and .......Genesis. Scribed by Moses himself"


well, it isn't as simple as you want to make it, but if that helps you, then, yes.


"So much so, that even god forgot to get hi /her name dictated and scribed.   Was god honest or Moses dishonest?"


Again, why are you inserting things that no one has mentioned? Who said anything about forgeting anything about a name? Why invent ideas and then assume they are fact and present them as a problem?


"What makes you think that the Noah's story isn't talking about the spirits of those animals? And now I am saying it to you - there are eight pairs of cattle in you.  What sense have you in the statement?  Yet, it is in the Al-Quran.   May be not in your scriptures.  "


Noah's story says it is talking about animals. What it says in the koran doesn't matter to me, sorry if I don't buy the spiritual retelling. Your statement of "8 pairs in me" means nothing. It might lend itself to a very nice exposition about the nature of mankind but that doesn't really affect me or my uunderstanding of the story of Noah.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 3:15PM #64
browbeaten
Posts: 3,194

May 3, 2012 -- 3:01PM, ffb wrote:


"I am not to sure by your non-clear, restricted-like or calculatively cautious  description, in Judaism, you do the same"


In Judaism we recognize that the labels are all ways of referring to the one and we worship the one even if our language specifies one part or another. The idea that god is at all fractured or split into parts which can then be isolated and made the object of prayer is counter to judaism.


"Moses wrote those words down, at such a fantastic speed, and that was a miracle.  That is as good as saying YHWH who was doing the miracle."


God was. Who said otherwise?


"And I am wondering, why didn't YHWH simply make one wholebook of Torah to descend from the sky and catch it with his two hands from the sky? That would save a lot of Moses's energy."


the process of writing down is an important part of establishing the text, especially one that was designed to be transmitted through writing.


"And by the time Moses finished scribing, YHWH was gone and Moses struggled to explain what he wrote down.  He forgot so many things that they have to be re-authored. "


I'm not sure where you get this. While there are rabbinic ideas that Mo did forget certain elements of the oral law, we have no tradition that he forgot or had to struggle to explain the written text. So I don;t know why you would introduce this as some sort of aspect of what I wrote.


"And you are not interested in the originator of the text be they God, Angel, Jinn or Man?"


Who said I wasn't. Since I have faith that the originator is god, I don't see what you are asking.


"at the blink of an eye, there you have one whole book of the Torah and .......Genesis. Scribed by Moses himself"


well, it isn't as simple as you want to make it, but if that helps you, then, yes.


"So much so, that even god forgot to get hi /her name dictated and scribed.   Was god honest or Moses dishonest?"


Again, why are you inserting things that no one has mentioned? Who said anything about forgeting anything about a name? Why invent ideas and then assume they are fact and present them as a problem?


"What makes you think that the Noah's story isn't talking about the spirits of those animals? And now I am saying it to you - there are eight pairs of cattle in you.  What sense have you in the statement?  Yet, it is in the Al-Quran.   May be not in your scriptures.  "


Noah's story says it is talking about animals. What it says in the koran doesn't matter to me, sorry if I don't buy the spiritual retelling. Your statement of "8 pairs in me" means nothing. It might lend itself to a very nice exposition about the nature of mankind but that doesn't really affect me or my uunderstanding of the story of Noah.




ffb, Visio is simply unearthing the Muslim perspective that the Torah is corrupt and was corrupted by man.   And how the Qur'an has "corrected" these errors.  


Moderated by Miraj on May 03, 2012 - 03:45PM
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 3:50PM #65
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Despite the inherent differences in beliefs between a variety of faith contributors, this discussion has been respectful and congenial since the beginning.  It will continue that way.  Comments that don't contribute to the continuing productive and congenial nature of the discussion will be modified or removed.


Thank you for your cooperation.


miraj in mod mode

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


PhotobucketPhotobucket
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 5:09PM #66
Ibn
Posts: 4,937

May 3, 2012 -- 3:15PM, browbeaten wrote:


ffb, Visio is simply unearthing the Muslim perspective that the Torah is corrupt and was corrupted by man.   And how the Qur'an has "corrected" these errors. 


browbeaten,


What makes you think that Visio is simply unearthing the Muslim perspective that the Torah is corrupt and was corrupted by man?

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 5:48PM #67
browbeaten
Posts: 3,194

May 3, 2012 -- 5:09PM, Ibn wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 3:15PM, browbeaten wrote:


ffb, Visio is simply unearthing the Muslim perspective that the Torah is corrupt and was corrupted by man.   And how the Qur'an has "corrected" these errors. 


browbeaten,


What makes you think that Visio is simply unearthing the Muslim perspective that the Torah is corrupt and was corrupted by man?




[Putting the glass to his blind eye] "You know, Foley, I have only one eye - and I have a right to be blind sometimes... I really do not see the signal."


biography Life of Nelson



Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 7:47PM #68
visio
Posts: 3,389

May 3, 2012 -- 3:15PM, browbeaten wrote:



 
ffb, Visio is simply unearthing the Muslim perspective that the Torah is corrupt and was corrupted by man.   And how the Qur'an has "corrected" these errors.  




Yes, that's correct, browbeaten.  You can put it that way.   Whether that corruption were intentional or not, caused by or as a result of differing levels, depths and capacities  of understanding words in scriptural readings, are what the skunk type of works that ffb initially requested in his OP.  He was asking for a list.  And there was none.  Instead of asking back, do you have one, I asked a few detailed (spiritual/theological) questions, I have got the signal, now, that all of what is in the Torah are false.   Like, what I have experienced in one particular Injil (Gospel), the Hebrew Gospel of the Nazarene (GoN), I wouldn't think so.  Personally, I found many of Jesus narratives are spiritually and theologically enlightening and complements quite well the deeper doctrines concealed in the Al-Quran.  But highligting them to Christians, well, what to say, they don't give a blind eye but three blank ones.


Anyway, I am glad that you could read well, between the lines.  What aberrations I am trying to unearth extends beyond the Torah.  They could be anyone of those scriptures of Hinduism & Buddhism & Lao Tse-ism.  

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 11:04PM #69
visio
Posts: 3,389

May 3, 2012 -- 3:01PM, ffb wrote:


"I am not to sure by your non-clear, restricted-like or calculatively cautious  description, in Judaism, you do the same"


In Judaism we recognize that the labels are all ways of referring to the one and we worship the one even if our language specifies one part or another. The idea that god is at all fractured or split into parts which can then be isolated and made the object of prayer is counter to judaism.



No problemo.  I understand that.


"Moses wrote those words down, at such a fantastic speed, and that was a miracle.  That is as good as saying YHWH who was doing the miracle."


God was. Who said otherwise?



See my response in comments given below.


"And I am wondering, why didn't YHWH simply make one wholebook of Torah to descend from the sky and catch it with his two hands from the sky? That would save a lot of Moses's energy."


the process of writing down is an important part of establishing the text, especially one that was designed to be transmitted through writing.




And God had given the task to Musa, as you said it.   Now, was he alone when he wrote it?




"And by the time Moses finished scribing, YHWH was gone and Moses struggled to explain what he wrote down.  He forgot so many things that they have to be re-authored. "


I'm not sure where you get this. While there are rabbinic ideas that Mo did forget certain elements of the oral law, we have no tradition that he forgot or had to struggle to explain the written text. So I don;t know why you would introduce this as some sort of aspect of what I wrote.



Intuition.


Are you saying that there were also rabbis present when God transcribed His/Her revelation to Mo?   Otherwise where do the rabbinic ideas that Mo did forget certain elements of the oral Law?   And yes, why oral law and not the revelations itself?  And sorry, I should have asked you first – what do you mean by elements of the oral law?  Is it something like a process and/or procedure set by your rabbinic system  whereby all revelations of the long line of bani-Israeli prophets have to comply before they were documented, approved and sealed?


"And you are not interested in the originator of the text be they God, Angel, Jinn or Man?"


Who said I wasn't. Since I have faith that the originator is god, I don't see what you are asking.




Is god a Hebrew word?  If not, what does it say/sound in Hebrew ?  If you don’t mind to do the transliteration.   I understand what you say as in Judaism God is also assigned by many labels in accordance to IT’s characters.   And my understanding is so is your guardian angel, my guardian angel, all the prophet’s guardian angels.  It so happened that Muhammadsaw referred to it as Gabriel, not Michael, not Israel, not Israfil etc. etc………  It appeared to me that too much of personification in Hebrew description of events and characters is quite confusing and not much of complication, thus your admission of complexication of the Torah or in your theology as a whole.  I couldn’t pick up any specific thing in the Torah, not yet.   But something related to the discussion please enlighten me, if you could, the following lines from Zabur (Psalms):  



16:1 Preserve me, God, for in you do I take refuge.



16:2 My soul, you have said to Yahweh, “You are my Lord.



        Apart from you I have no good thing.”



My straight question is what is that Anglo-Saxonian God says in Hebrew?   Is it Elah, Elohim,  El Shadai …………Rab(bii)




"at the blink of an eye, there you have one whole book of the Torah and .......Genesis. Scribed by Moses himself"


well, it isn't as simple as you want to make it, but if that helps you, then, yes.




It’s either you come out with an explanation or I can take it as you are not in a postion to describe your proclaimed complication, complexified.






"So much so, that even god forgot to get hi /her name dictated and scribed.   Was god honest or Moses dishonest?"


Again, why are you inserting things that no one has mentioned? Who said anything about forgeting anything about a name? Why invent ideas and then assume they are fact and present them as a problem?




In the event that the Torah itself does not indicate who was talking and dictating one complete works in the Torah, that, I suppose the best I can assume.  God had forgotten to indicate him/herself.  May be I am jumping at a pre-conclusion one byte too early.


"What makes you think that the Noah's story isn't talking about the spirits of those animals? And now I am saying it to you - there are eight pairs of cattle in you.  What sense have you in the statement?  Yet, it is in the Al-Quran.   May be not in your scriptures.  "


Noah's story says it is talking about animals. What it says in the koran doesn't matter to me, sorry if I don't buy the spiritual retelling. Your statement of "8 pairs in me" means nothing. It might lend itself to a very nice exposition about the nature of mankind but that doesn't really affect me or my uunderstanding of the story of Noah.




And so are the following verses in the Al-Quran.  It should be of no effect upon you:


Al-Baqarah 2 : 63 – 67   And (O bani-Israeli, remember) when We took your covenant and We raised above you the Mount (saying):   Hold fast to that which We have given you, and remember that which is therein  so that you may become Al-Mutataqun (pious, righteous).   Then after you turned away.   Had it not for the Grace and Mercy of ALLAH upon you, indeed you would have been among the losers.   And indeed you knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath.   We said to them:   “Be you monkeys, despised and rejected.”   So We made the punishment an example to their own and to succeeding generations and a lesson to those who are Al-Muttaqun (pious, righteous).   And (remember) when Musa said to his people:   “Verily, ALLAH commands you that you slaughter a cow.”   They said:   “Do you make fun of us?”   He (Musa) said : “I take ALLAH’s Refuge from being among the Al-Jahilun (the ignorant or the foolish).”


Now then, you may not understand about all these animal stuff until you really understand the following Commandments (Law) that Mo had it revealed as part of the covenant he received for a section of the bani-Israel tribes.


Do you want me to try and explain it from the perspective of Quranic Big Picture?


20 : 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


20 : 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


Please bear it with me, ffb, if my questions are a bit to incisive.  It is just to expose anyone to another ste of thoughtlines.  I would do the same even to my fellow Muslim brothers and sisters.   there are lots of things that I wrote on B'net they would find as revolting against their standard or ratehr levels of understanding.   And to and between you and them, it is not for me to make any judgements.   And I really appreciate your honest attempts to response to some of those questions and trying to read what's between the lines.  May be I have overexposed myself to mystics one too many.   I tend to read more of those between the lines. 




Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 5:38AM #70
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,901

May 3, 2012 -- 3:50PM, Miraj wrote:


Despite the inherent differences in beliefs between a variety of faith contributors, this discussion has been respectful and congenial since the beginning.  It will continue that way.  Comments that don't contribute to the continuing productive and congenial nature of the discussion will be modified or removed.


Thank you for your cooperation.


miraj in mod mode




I am also delighted to see such a substantive and amicable debate. And I must thank Ibn for his viewpoints which are clearly well-grounded in the Qur'án.


You're a very important contributor to this board.


Wabbity regards from your North-East,


LilWabbit

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 7 of 11  •  Prev 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 ... 11 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook