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2 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 7:07PM #31
Blü
Posts: 24,929

Elias


let use a police officers as an example


A police officer may exceed speed limits in the line of duty because the law allows him to do so.

If he speeds outside the line of duty then the law is there to punish him.

Laws have general application.  They apply to judges and police as well as to convicts.

And everything I listed in the OP is a violation of morality - moral law, if you like - such that if you or I did them we'd not only be subject to legal sanctions but justly be regarded as a moral monster.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 7:08PM #32
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

Apr 18, 2012 -- 7:05PM, Blü wrote:


dave, jlb


what jlb said was that if God ordered it; he would accept it


So jlb is telling us he has no personal sense of right and wrong.  He just does what his superior tells him.


That's clear and simple.

Interesting echoes of Nuremberg, too.




It does, and that is distressing. How many world evils have been done, because someone thinks their god told them to do it (what ever it may have been)?


A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 7:12PM #33
Blü
Posts: 24,929

Adelphe


what you have to do is adjust your idea of what is "moral" to God's perfect morality.


You're saying it's fine for us to commit genocide, order mass rape, demand human sacrifice, murder in the name of religious intolerance, visit evil on people, lie to them, impregnate them without consent, let people you've promised to protect be murdered in their millions - and so on, and so on - because acting like that is acting like Yahweh, the perfect moral exemplar.  

You're happy to make yourself into a moral monster because Yahweh did.


Noted.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 7:13PM #34
Blü
Posts: 24,929

Burnman


After reading this Blu, I realize something. You actually do believe in God.


*Chuckle*

Nope.  I think some things are immoral, though.

Meanwhile I'm looking forward to your reasoned answers to the questions in the OP.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 7:26PM #35
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783


Apr 18, 2012 -- 1:53PM, Burnman wrote:


After reading this Blu, I realize something. You actually do believe in God.





He has said nothing to give that impression, but he as myself certainly believe in peoples ability to do horrendous things in the name of your god, whether said god exists or not. And the many posts here show that.


No evil or immorality is off the table as long as you (generic you) believe your god is in favour of it. Including murder, rape and every other imaginable atrocity.



Edit to ad, So what? Why would Blu possibly believing in a god please you?, what difference would that make? It is this Christain god's followers we have to fear.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 3:13AM #36
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,683

God's ATTRIBUTES and CHARACTER


versus


The origins and definition of Man's "morality"


==============================================================


God is GOOD and PERFECT, revealing ABSOLUTE spiritual TRUTH.


versus


Man's IMPERFECT rules of society, man trying to grasp and form the changing and RELATIVE humanistic RULES.


========================================================


Evil is simply the ABSENCE of GOD. God is not evil, nor did He create evil. He gave Man the mysterious gift of "free will"...Man: do your own thing!


SIN = "falling short" = ANYTHING contrary to the perfect CHARACTER and ATTRIBUTES of the TRI-UNE GOD...ALL fall short!


SIN(S) = personal "missing the marks" = willfull or ignorant, commission or omission, "trespasses" that cause
loss of fellowship with / create a barrier between God and Man...these can be FORGIVEN!


SIN NATURE = the natural-born capacity and inclination to do / not do those things that can in no way
commend Man and his "works" to God....SPIRITUALLY changed by redemption/salvation, BUT "sins" still rears its ugly head in BODY / SOUL


IMPUTED SIN:?...Romans 5:12. 15-17 (NIV)...Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ


How believers deal with SIN(S) in their lives...
the "carnal Christ-follower " must CONFESS (agree with God)...
1 John 1: 5-10...Walking in the light


MORALITY in the Bible:...and there ain't much!


Job 11: (NASB)
 7 “Can you discover the depths of God?
Can you discover the limits of the Almighty?
8 “They are high as the heavens, what can you do?
Deeper than Sheol (deepest grave), what can you know?
9 “Its measure is longer than the earth
And broader than the sea.
10 “If He passes by or shuts up,
Or calls an assembly, who can restrain Him?
11 “For He knows false men,
And He sees iniquity (spiritual rebellion) without investigating....
13 “If you would direct your heart right
And spread out your hand to Him,
14 If iniquity is in your hand, put it far away,
And do not let wickedness dwell in your tents;
15 “Then, indeed, you could lift up your face without MORAL defect,
And you would be steadfast and not fear.


1 Corinthians 15: 32b-34 (NASB) ...Paul: the relationship of "sin" to "morals"
...If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE.
Do not be deceived:
Bad company corrupts good MORALS.”
Become sober-minded as you ought,
and stop sinning;
for some have no knowledge of God. (don't be a bad example!)
I speak this to your (believer's) shame.


2 Peter 1: 5-7 (NASB)...Peter: developing "morals" is a step toward spiritual love
Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence,
in your FAITH supply MORAL excellence, and
in your moral excellence, knowledge, and
in your knowledge, self-control, and
in your self-control, perseverance, and
in your perseverance, godliness, and
in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and
in your brotherly kindness, love.


Psalm 19:7-9 (NIV)
 7 The law of the LORD is perfect,
   refreshing the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
   making wise the simple.
8 The precepts of the LORD are right,
   giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the LORD are radiant,
   giving light to the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is pure,
   enduring forever.
The decrees of the LORD are firm,
   and all of them are righteous.


MORALITY: dictionary definition


www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moral...


Definition of MORALITY
1a : a moral discourse, statement, or lesson
1b : a literary or other imaginative work teaching a moral lesson
2a : a doctrine or system of moral conduct
2b plural : particular moral principles or rules of conduct
3: conformity to ideals of right human conduct
4: moral conduct : virtue
...
First Known Use of MORALITY....14th century...
Synonyms: character, decency, goodness, honesty, integrity, probity, rectitude, righteousness, rightness, uprightness, virtue, virtuousness


==============================================================


God is not bound nor defined by Man's Morality!
Use spirit lenses to see spirit...
And don't try to trick anyone into thinking that there are:....SINS of YHWH
...Jehovah ~=God the Father / ~=TRI-UNE GOD ...cannot spiritually or otherwise "sin".


CHANGE THE DISHONEST AND DECEPTIVE TITLE OF THIS THREAD!


 



 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 3:41AM #37
Blü
Posts: 24,929

Rgurley


That's all very jolly.


However the acts mentioned in the OP which the bible attributes to Yahweh are moral outrages.


They can't be reconciled with your claims for a pure, just &c Yahweh.


So your post doesn't address the matters raised in the OP.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 3:56AM #38
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,683

Blu...your OP blows!

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 4:00AM #39
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,683

You twist and misconstrue the character of God.


You dare to JUDGE His perfection with faulty human "morality".


The folks that suffered the wrath of a perfectly JUST God in the OT had no spirit of God within them.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 7:40AM #40
Blü
Posts: 24,929

Rgurley


You twist and misconstrue the character of God.


No I don't.  I simply cite the accounts of Yahweh in the bible.


You dare to JUDGE His perfection with faulty human "morality".


So you're a champion of uncritical obedience and the irrelevance of conscience, eh? You learnt nothing from Nuremberg.


My own view is that we should be responsible for our own behavior.  Should he exist, that includes Yahweh.


By my morality, it's wrong to kill all breathing creatures on the earth bar a boatload.  It's wrong to order mass rapes and genocides, demand and accept human sacrifices, send evil to people, tell lies, impregnate without consent, break your promise to protect people so they get murdered in their millions.


And it's wrong to commit massacres in the name of religious intolerance.

You don't agree.  You think that's all morally fine.  That's your Christianity and you're welcome to it.


The folks that suffered the wrath of a perfectly JUST God in the OT had no spirit of God within them.


But that's the very point you never address -you just try to shout it down.  As I pointed out in the OP, there is NO 'perfectly just God' in the bible. Instead there's a moral monster with his atrocities plainly stated.

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