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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 10:57PM #1
Blü
Posts: 25,076

I find on this board repeated assertions that Yahweh is sinless.

In my veteran Shorter Oxford, the first definition of '[a] sin' is -

A transgression against divine law and an offence against [Yahweh]; a violation (esp. wilful or deliberate) of some religious or moral principle.

That, as you can see, is actually two definitions.

No problem arises under the second definition.

As for the first definition, I'm not aware of any biblical statement that says Yawheh can, or cannot, offend himself by his own conduct (a process implying introspection); if that's correct then it's an open question. 

If he can't offend himself by his own conduct, then he can commit the grossest violations of morality and (on that definition) not 'sin'.  The impartial onlooker will still find morally abhorrent not only his relevant conduct, but also the trick wording that exempts him - a very reasonable principle of Common Law is that no one should judge his own cause.  And our onlooker will likewise conclude that, 'sinless' or not, Yahweh is, in moral terms, a monster.

If he can so offend himself, then the question is whether his conscience is in line with the morality he prescribes.  It would seem odd to assert otherwise, but the argument is there, in which case his conduct leads our impartial onlooker to the same conclusion as before.

For completeness I list a dozen of the more sensational moral violations committed by Yahweh.

1* Killing all breathing creatures on the earth bar a boatload.
2* Genocide
3* Massacre
4* Mass rape
5* Demanding and accepting human sacrifice
6* Murder in the name of religious intolerance
7* Sending evil to people
8* Lying
9* Letting a faithful man's livelihood be destroyed for a bet
10* Impregnating a woman without her consent
11* Allowing the Holocaust (in breach of implied terms in his Covenant with the Jews, Deuteronomy 14:2)
12* Allowing the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Thirty Years War, two world wars, HIV and so on.

If you or I did these things, we'd be moral monsters.

How then is Yahweh 'sinless'?

Because of a technical excuse that lets him be a moral monster?

Or not at all?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 11:08PM #2
Ed.W
Posts: 9,442

God killed 150,000 people today.

‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 11:11PM #3
Blü
Posts: 25,076

Ed


Care to give a reasoned reply to the OP?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 11:17PM #4
Ed.W
Posts: 9,442

Apr 17, 2012 -- 11:11PM, Blü wrote:


Ed


Care to give a reasoned reply to the OP?




And what was wrong with the Crusades?



It was already correctly stated by your nemesis JLB, that BY DEFINITION  God is sinless.  You seem to think he is answerable to you.

‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 11:29PM #5
Blü
Posts: 25,076

Ed


What was wrong with the Crusades?


It was fought between two Abrahamic religions.


But if that's your best shot, thanks for sharing.



It was already correctly stated by your nemesis JLB, that BY DEFINITION  God is sinless.


You appear not to have read the OP.  If you did, then you failed to understand it.



You seem to think he is answerable to you.


And if that's your second best shot, thanks again for sharing.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 12:05AM #6
Eliascomes
Posts: 994

Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:57PM, Blü wrote:


I find on this board repeated assertions that Yahweh is sinless.

In my veteran Shorter Oxford, the first definition of '[a] sin' is -

A transgression against divine law and an offence against [Yahweh]; a violation (esp. wilful or deliberate) of some religious or moral principle.

That, as you can see, is actually two definitions.

No problem arises under the second definition.

As for the first definition, I'm not aware of any biblical statement that says Yawheh can, or cannot, offend himself by his own conduct (a process implying introspection); if that's correct then it's an open question. 

If he can't offend himself by his own conduct, then he can commit the grossest violations of morality and (on that definition) not 'sin'.  The impartial onlooker will still find morally abhorrent not only his relevant conduct, but also the trick wording that exempts him - a very reasonable principle of Common Law is that no one should judge his own cause.  And our onlooker will likewise conclude that, 'sinless' or not, Yahweh is, in moral terms, a monster.

If he can so offend himself, then the question is whether his conscience is in line with the morality he prescribes.  It would seem odd to assert otherwise, but the argument is there, in which case his conduct leads our impartial onlooker to the same conclusion as before.

For completeness I list a dozen of the more sensational moral violations committed by Yahweh.

1* Killing all breathing creatures on the earth bar a boatload.


2* Genocide


     Hitler did the same also, but God didn't spared his life; Was Hitler a good man?
3* Massacre
4* Mass rape
5* Demanding and accepting human sacrifice


     Isaac was sacrifice?
6* Murder in the name of religious intolerance
7* Sending evil to people


      I guess He did it since people love evil?
8* Lying
9* Letting a faithful man's livelihood be destroyed for a bet


     Job shouldn't love his kids soo much, because they would had drained the life out of him.
10* Impregnating a woman without her consent


       Back then, every woman waited in line for that opportunity; I remember every woman wanted the other King's baby, back in the days; Remember, Elvis?
11* Allowing the Holocaust (in breach of implied terms in his Covenant with the Jews, Deuteronomy 14:2)
12* Allowing the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Thirty Years War, two world wars, HIV and so on.


 I guess these things happen when we cast Him out of our lives. Remember God wasn't around when Abel died.

If you or I did these things, we'd be moral monsters.

How then is Yahweh 'sinless'?

Because of a technical excuse that lets him be a moral monster?

Or not at all?





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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 6:32AM #7
Kwinters
Posts: 22,169

What is the role of so-called 'absolute' morality in this theology? Is there an 'absolute' morality which god is in perfect alignment with, or does god exist outside of/transcend 'absolute' morality, in which case, woher kommt sie (from whence does it come)?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 7:36AM #8
Seefan
Posts: 3,969

Apr 18, 2012 -- 6:32AM, Kwinters wrote:

What is the role of so-called 'absolute' morality in this theology? Is there an 'absolute' morality which god is in perfect alignment with, or does god exist outside of/transcend 'absolute' morality, in which case, woher kommt sie (from whence does it come)?



If I understand your options, I'd pick the second one, God exist outside of/transcend 'absolute' morality.  Morality is a human construct, absolute or not, and comes from human interpretation of God's Will. But what is God's Will?  God created creation subject to physical and spiritual laws.  His divine Will is for us to work within the guide lines of these laws and not trangress them.  If we do we pay a price!  The bible, esp the OT horror stories listed in the OP is an interpretation of God's punishment as a result of transgressing those laws.  My understanding is that God doesn't directly punish.  It would be like saying gravity punished the man who jumped off the tall building and was mush on the sidewalk below.  If the terrorist are defeated would we claim that God punished them or was it the armed forces fighting who defeated them for what appeared to be for right reasons and what history may concur?  In 1000 years from now, and it may probably be those with an agenda saying God killed 10,000 freedom fighters (terrorist) who disagreed with the Jewish rule.  How sinful is your God?  How can you be so silly to believe in such a cruel God?


As an addition - Spiritual laws are in two types eternal laws/teachings which never change and societal laws which may change from age to age, such as the eating of pork ...


 

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 8:14AM #9
jlb32168
Posts: 13,401

Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:57PM, Blü wrote:

I find on this board repeated assertions that Yahweh is sinless.  In my veteran Shorter Oxford, the first definition of 'sin' is -


That is the issue – what sin actually is.  For those who hold that sin is “that which separates us from God” then YHWH cannot sin since He cannot separate Himself from Himself.


Of course, conceivably, God could direct us to hack our children into pieces and serve them in a soup to our neighbors whom we invited to supper and we would not be committing a sin in doing so.  I would simply have to accept that this action accomplishes some inscrutable good.


Fortunately for us, God rarely sees fit to direct us to perform such labors - if he ever will again.

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 8:20AM #10
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,819


The Sins of Yahweh...HUH? ...FALSE ASSUMPTION!


Several objections:


1. The title falsely assumes the all-good, all-perfect TRI-UNE GOD can fall short of His own perfection.


2. failure to Biblically or otherwise theologically DEFINE :Sin(S) / Sin / Sin Nature !!!
Dictionary definitions are not theologically sound nor doctrinally correct...humanistic!


3. failure to Biblically or otherwise  theologically DEFINE :"morality" / "moral violations" !!!
Dictionary definitions are not theologically sound nor doctrinally correct...humanistic!


4. improperly and futilely trying to COMPARE:


The spiritual attributes and character of the TRI-UNE GOD...absolute truth (apples)


WITH:


Humanistic and secular and societal  "reasoning"...relativism (oranges)


5. a crude and lewd "parade of the horribles" in an attempt to confuse perfect spiritual JUSTICE with HUMAN nice-nice standards.


ANSWER:


1. GOD is without flaw or sin. Your premise, questions, and this thread is rediculous.


2. Self-centered and Imperfect Man (who always falls short of God's perfection) views Biblical history through un-spiritual and unwise eyes.

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