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Switch to Forum Live View Pain, Conscience and Religion
3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 2:43PM #1
JCarlin
Posts: 6,787

Apr 17, 2012 -- 1:07PM, Lavengro wrote:


"...pain caused by another human whether physical or mental is bad, in fact positively immoral for the one inflicting the pain."


That statement is not universally true, and requires some qualification, JCarlin.  Take, for example, the manipulation by a school-teacher of the dislocated thumb of a football-playing schoolboy (I was that schoolboy, and he caused me great pain, but I am grateful to him because the longer a dislocation is not corrected, the greater the trauma).  Also (perhaps not so clear-cut, but there is at least a debate on the subject) minor pain inflicted on one's children as a corrective measure is not immoral.


"I know these things because I am an intelligent social animal, and inflicting pain on others of your kind is a genetic prohibition."


Again, not universally true, unless, as an intelligent social animal, you also know that psychopathy and other pathological traits are genetic and not acquired -- I don't think the nature/nurture debate is over yet, is it?.  But in general people fall at different points on the continuum between enjoying the pain of others and complete empathy, as they do on all other continuums between good and bad.  Why do you think that the world is in such a mess?  You'll be telling us next that there would be a Utopia if it were not for religion.


Inflicting pain should always feel immoral, occasionally justified as necessary for the greater well being of the tribe or individual.  If the addage "This hurts me more than it hurts you" is not absolutely true society can be warned that they are dealing with pathology that must be recognized and isolated. 

As you note there are genetic tendencies for pain infliction that may have had selective advantages and hence were conserved.  A very common trait is indifference to the infliction of mental pain and more rarely physical pain that is an advantage to political leaders, religious prophets, and other con artists.  It can provide in some circumstances more common in the past a major advantage over more moral competitors.  This does not make it moral, and modern society is becoming more aware of these dangers and doing what it can to isolate them.  

J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 2:52PM #2
JCarlin
Posts: 6,787

Apr 17, 2012 -- 1:07PM, Lavengro wrote:

  Why do you think that the world is in such a mess?  You'll be telling us next that there would be a Utopia if it were not for religion.


It is not religion per se that is the problem,  but the tendency of some religions to combine religion with politics.  It is this combination that either causes the loss of human compassion or encourages those genetically deficient in compassion to assume leadership. 

J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 12:31PM #3
williejhonlo
Posts: 3,784

Apr 17, 2012 -- 2:52PM, JCarlin wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 1:07PM, Lavengro wrote:

  Why do you think that the world is in such a mess?  You'll be telling us next that there would be a Utopia if it were not for religion.


It is not religion per se that is the problem,  but the tendency of some religions to combine religion with politics.  It is this combination that either causes the loss of human compassion or encourages those genetically deficient in compassion to assume leadership. 



It is not religion that combines religion with politics, it is politicians that combine religion with politics. It's all about them votes.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 12:57PM #4
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

Apr 18, 2012 -- 12:31PM, williejhonlo wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 2:52PM, JCarlin wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 1:07PM, Lavengro wrote:

  Why do you think that the world is in such a mess?  You'll be telling us next that there would be a Utopia if it were not for religion.


It is not religion per se that is the problem,  but the tendency of some religions to combine religion with politics.  It is this combination that either causes the loss of human compassion or encourages those genetically deficient in compassion to assume leadership. 



It is not religion that combines religion with politics, it is politicians that combine religion with politics. It's all about them votes.




Religion (at least organised religions, wouldn't really apply to those who believe and practice solitary )  is a political system unto itself/themselves, which is why it/they work/s so well in national politics. They are pretty much the same thing using a different script. Religion melts perfectly with out rejection into politics because it is politics.


Politics is about control, power and control. So is religion. They both want control and power over others. Which is one of the reasons good people tend not to go into politics, because they do not want power and control over others.




A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 2:40PM #5
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 18, 2012 -- 12:57PM, mainecaptain wrote:


Apr 18, 2012 -- 12:31PM, williejhonlo wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 2:52PM, JCarlin wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 1:07PM, Lavengro wrote:

  Why do you think that the world is in such a mess?  You'll be telling us next that there would be a Utopia if it were not for religion.


It is not religion per se that is the problem,  but the tendency of some religions to combine religion with politics.  It is this combination that either causes the loss of human compassion or encourages those genetically deficient in compassion to assume leadership. 



It is not religion that combines religion with politics, it is politicians that combine religion with politics. It's all about them votes.




Religion is a political system unto itself, which is why it works so well in national politics. They are pretty much the same thing using a different script. Religion melts perfectly with out rejection into politics because it is politics.


Politics is about control, power and control. So is religion. They both want control and power over others. Which is one of the reasons good people tend not to go into politics, because they do not want power and control over others.







Funny. 


In my own experience, religion has negated any desire to have control or power over others. 


Indeed, the entire concept of wanting to control others seems non-sensically insane from my perspective. 


Plus, my religion strictly forbids me from becoming involved in partisan politics. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 2:43PM #6
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 18, 2012 -- 12:31PM, williejhonlo wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 2:52PM, JCarlin wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 1:07PM, Lavengro wrote:

  Why do you think that the world is in such a mess?  You'll be telling us next that there would be a Utopia if it were not for religion.


It is not religion per se that is the problem,  but the tendency of some religions to combine religion with politics.  It is this combination that either causes the loss of human compassion or encourages those genetically deficient in compassion to assume leadership. 



It is not religion that combines religion with politics, it is politicians that combine religion with politics. It's all about them votes.




I agree. Religion has been used as a tool... or a front or window dressing, by those seeking power. 


Conflict and war is typically about resourses, wealth or territory, and fueled primarily by testosterone. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 12:54PM #7
williejhonlo
Posts: 3,784

Apr 18, 2012 -- 2:43PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 18, 2012 -- 12:31PM, williejhonlo wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 2:52PM, JCarlin wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 1:07PM, Lavengro wrote:

  Why do you think that the world is in such a mess?  You'll be telling us next that there would be a Utopia if it were not for religion.


It is not religion per se that is the problem,  but the tendency of some religions to combine religion with politics.  It is this combination that either causes the loss of human compassion or encourages those genetically deficient in compassion to assume leadership. 



It is not religion that combines religion with politics, it is politicians that combine religion with politics. It's all about them votes.




I agree. Religion has been used as a tool... or a front or window dressing, by those seeking power. 


Conflict and war is typically about resourses, wealth or territory, and fueled primarily by testosterone. 



I wholly concur, politicians are very good at manipulating peoples sensibilities.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 1:40PM #8
JCarlin
Posts: 6,787

Apr 18, 2012 -- 12:31PM, williejhonlo wrote:

It is not religion that combines religion with politics, it is politicians that combine religion with politics. It's all about them votes.


A look at history would suggest that religion has always been heavily involved with politics.  The divine right of Kings was not a secular invention.  I suspect that the causal arrow points at religion not politics when the two are in bed. 

J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 2:34PM #9
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

Apr 19, 2012 -- 1:40PM, JCarlin wrote:


Apr 18, 2012 -- 12:31PM, williejhonlo wrote:

It is not religion that combines religion with politics, it is politicians that combine religion with politics. It's all about them votes.


A look at history would suggest that religion has always been heavily involved with politics.  The divine right of Kings was not a secular invention.  I suspect that the causal arrow points at religion not politics when the two are in bed. 




Exactly.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 2:38PM #10
wohali
Posts: 10,227

"I wholly concur, politicians are very good at manipulating peoples sensibilities."


I think that the clergy is every bit as adept at this.

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