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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 10:34PM #101
LeahOne
Posts: 16,571

If even once a purported 'critic' of Judaism were not thoroughly entrenched in 'White supremacy' and Holocaust denial, then it MIGHT be possible to consider the 'criticsms' expressed as sincere and worthy of a moment's consideration.


I've noticed that at the core, the Jew-hatred of racists is the visceral ENVY of the supposedly false superiority of Jews.  I think the poor fools actually believe their own propaganda that there IS a 'master race' - and they are TERRIFIED that maybe it's not themselves after all.....


 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 10:39PM #102
LeahOne
Posts: 16,571

Let me just clarify that:  most Jews are 'superior' to White supremacists.  In exactly the same way that most people of any group are superior to White supremacists - because most people are not racists.


And anyone not a racist is superior to the racist of whatever hue or type - at least IMO.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 7:32AM #103
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

I completely agree, Leah. 


We don't know if Foggie is a racist per se - but we do know that she opposes the celebration of minority cultures and the civil equality of LGBT people, endorses authoritarianism and hereditary privilege, and hints darkly at some massive Jewish conspiracy to take over the world. If she is not a racist, she at least talks like one - and not even an original one at that. 


Now that she has shown her hand, I guess the game is pretty much over. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 8:18AM #104
LeahOne
Posts: 16,571

Nieciedo, I think you made an excellent point earlier, when you asked Foggy just what she was offering people in exchange for the comforting beliefs of religion (ALL religion per se, not Judaism alone).


As others have pointed out, an atheist philosophy is not automatically egalitarian nor benign - so there's no inherent advantage to making the change. 


If each of us who ascribes to some religion or other simply focused on applying the most generous and positive understandings of our respective tenets, the world would soon become a more loving and caring environment for all creatures. 


OTOH, a dogma of 'racialism' which insists upon pigeonholing people by presumed 'racial' characteristics is only going to produce some variant of 'Brave New World'.    It doesn't matter what the people look like who are graded as 'Alpha' through 'Epsilon' :  it matters that people are *assigned* a grade and locked into it.


And that's without examining the accuracy of such grading to begin with.  The salient characteristic of our species is that we CAN learn:  many of us are 'driven' to do so.  Which makes any static grading a sick farce.


Now none of this has directly touched upon 'LGBT'  issues.   One 'religious' response to LGBT people is "Since GOD made you that way, that way must be right for you".  Another is "So you are Queer?  Well, I'm a Glutton - and he's Lazy, and she's Envious.  But GOD loves EACH of us even so." 


There exists a great deal more evidence that the 'seven deadly sins' have done far more damage to people's lives and to whole societies than all the LGBT individuals combined *even if we include NAMBLA  in 'LGBT'* !


Maybe having been married to the same fellow for 37 years has seriously impaired my sexual expression - I wouldn't know! - but I can't imagine where DH parks his 'parts' at home at night has any real impact on how he performs at his workplace, or his driving, or any other activity in which he interacts with any third party outside our bedroom (or in front of the fireplace, or.....)


I suppose I may be very lacking in imagination (NOT what my DH has indicated!) - but someone really does need to explain to me how anyone else's life would be affected if we were a same-sex couple. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 1:44PM #105
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

Apr 18, 2012 -- 8:18AM, LeahOne wrote:


Nieciedo, I think you made an excellent point earlier, when you asked Foggy just what she was offering people in exchange for the comforting beliefs of religion (ALL religion per se, not Judaism alone).


As others have pointed out, an atheist philosophy is not automatically egalitarian nor benign - so there's no inherent advantage to making the change. 


...




Exactly. What's the incentive?


I have some atheist friends. None of them were raised atheists; they adopted that position as adults freely and of their own mind. In conversations I've had with them, they think that atheism frees them from illusions and superstittions, and from wasting time and money on religious ceremonies and observances. Moreover, since many religions remain sexist, abandoning religion frees them from oppressive gender and sexual rules that stand in the way of a more fuller enjoyment of sex and their bodies and forming relationships according to their needs and desires.


"Freedom," in a nutshell, then is one of the selling points of atheism from their perspective and I admit it's a compelling argument.


It only works, however, if the other person feels oppressed or enslaved. If someone doesn't think that religion prevents them from enjoying life or even thinks that religion enhances their life, why should they abandon it and adopt an ideology that is less appealing and attractive to them?


And then we have the reality that despite Fog's initial claims to the contrary, she does not advocate a situation where people can get rid of their fairy tales and costumes and have a big old party together.


She doesn't even offer freedom, but rather restrictions on freedom. No only do you have to get rid of your religion, but also your cultural and ethnic heritage, you cannot form loving partnerships with the person of your choice if he or she is the wrong gender, and you have to accept monarchy and hereditary privilege as good things.


Maybe some people may find that appealing, but it seems like a real unfair and unbalanced deal.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 2:51PM #106
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,931

Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:39PM, LeahOne wrote:


Let me just clarify that:  most Jews are 'superior' to White supremacists.  In exactly the same way that most people of any group are superior to White supremacists - because most people are not racists.


And anyone not a racist is superior to the racist of whatever hue or type - at least IMO.




BS"D


I don't think any person is superior to any other person.  If a person is a racist separatist and a White Supremacist I do not believe that person is less than any other person.


I understand that most people, if they haven't given up on life already, are seeking a better world, a just and compassionate society and fair treament relative to everyone else in society.


If persons keep coming up against problems in achieving their goals and those problems coincide with a common observation, then it is only natural for those people to obsess over that common observation as either contributing to or directly causing their problems.


Now if a person wants to actually DO anything about the problems they seek they must do more than "connect the dots" with a single common observation.   If anyone acts on a single observation they are almost guaranteed to either fail or make things worse.  Understanding the big picture is crucial here.


A racist believes the theory of race is the "big picture."  A Jew believes Torah (which defines all peoples as blood kin in Adam and Eve) is the "big picture."  Others believe other things.  But the one who has the broadest perspective on the human condition and human history will invariably come up with the most successful solution to the problem of achieving a just and compassionate society which is actually capable of evolving and reaching towards the infinite human potential IMHO.


In such a world there is neither room for racism nor superiority - each person is invaluable - an entire unique universe unto themselves.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 4:37PM #107
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

You can't put racism and Torah on the same level of equally valid ideologies.


Also, ideologies can be rated as superior or inferior according to numerous standards. Among these are how closely they conform with observable reality, and - most importantly - the social effect of the actions they urge, require, or inspire people to take.


Racism gets very poor marks on both of those counts.


A person, in turn, can be judged according to their adherence to a given ideology. If they are raised to be racist by their parents, they can be forgiven for not knowing any better. But if they are an adult who has the opportunity to learn and adjust his or her thinking and still chooses not to, still deliberately chooses to embrace racism, then I think one can legitimately rate that person as inferior. They are not inferior in terms of rights or human dignity, but rather in terms of moral character, intellectual awareness, trustworthiness, etc.


Disclaimers:


I am not stating that TheFogHat is racist, only that she has articulated opinions generally espouced by racists.


I am aware that my own ideology gives me a very low score, as well. C'est la guerre.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 5:34PM #108
LeahOne
Posts: 16,571

“Every man is my superior in that I may learn from him.”  ―    Thomas Carlyle


 


And this is basically my position - although my initial post didn't appear to express it.  I look at racist 'theory' the way I regard religion which insists its doctrine is 'the One True TRUTH' for everyone.  If you can't think in terms of all of human endeavor at once, then you're too small-minded to possibly be 'the best'.....


Even the language racists tend to use is inimical to expressing such an idea : ((


Any sane individual knows we are not all 'equal' in our skills and talents - but that's a different matter from equal status before the law.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 6:05PM #109
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,790

Yes Leah And Dan as well , good posts

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 6:13PM #110
TheFogHorn
Posts: 120

I find it a bit odd that Jews are accusing me of racism and homophobia when their religious texts are horribly racist and homophobic. And I am now even being accused of being a white supremicist!


I'm just studying with great interest the Protocols of Zion (and will comment on them when I have mulled over them for a bit) but I just wanted to pop in and ask how can a people who seem so well educated and profess so profusely to be all about freedom, equality and the betterment of man also commit, as a group, such a crime against humanity as the forced sterilisation of black Ethiopian Jews in Israel? Added to that the treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories and I feel as though I'm dealing with a people who say one thing and do another.


There is a disconnect here. Anyone prepared to agree with that without using lots of smoke and mirrors tactics to divert attention away?

You'd need to read my entire blog to fully understand why I believe the ancient Hebrews worshipped volcanic activity.

http://ohmyvolcano.blogspot.com
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