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Switch to Forum Live View Could Jesus' Sin Have Ended The Universe?
3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 7:29AM #1
koolpoi
Posts: 6,518
Davelaw has often impressed me with his creative theology.In a recent post he said that if Jesus had sinned,the universe would have ended and there was also a danger of such an end when Jesus died.Is this a widely accepted Christian idea?It it accepted by some sects and rejected by others?How could a sin by Jesus have ended the universe?Doesn't God decide what is sin and if so how how could anything He did be sin unless He wished it to be so?So how could there be any danger that anything He did could end the universe?And how could Jesus' death have put the universe at risk?
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 7:40AM #2
Blü
Posts: 25,062

koolpoi


if Jesus had sinned,the universe would have ended and there was also a danger of such an end when Jesus died.


Neither of those notions is in my copy of the bible, but as creative theology goes, yahoo!  Well done, dave!


But when Yahweh previously got sour with the world, he merely flooded it and killed all breathing things bar a boatload. He didn't vent his spleen on the moon, let alone the sun and solar system, let alone our galaxy, let alone our galactic cluster, let alone the whole danged thing.


And if there's life in the Qxlrarrr Quadrant &c &c &c &c, it'd seem very unfair to wipe them all out just because of some regional snafu.  (Besides, they may have gods of their own so that Yahweh's writ doesn't run there.)


I don't see how the death of Jesus could bring about the end of the universe within the usual rules either.  Jesus was sent down for the express purpose of dying.  He carried out his mission and returned home in triumph.  So what's to punish?  If a posse led by Peter and Judas had roared up and rescued him?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 8:16AM #3
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Apr 16, 2012 -- 7:29AM, koolpoi wrote:

Davelaw has often impressed me with his creative theology.In a recent post he said that if Jesus had sinned,the universe would have ended and there was also a danger of such an end when Jesus died.Is this a widely accepted Christian idea?It it accepted by some sects and rejected by others?How could a sin by Jesus have ended the universe?Doesn't God decide what is sin and if so how how could anything He did be sin unless He wished it to be so?So how could there be any danger that anything He did could end the universe?And how could Jesus' death have put the universe at risk?



Jesus would caused God to sin.

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 8:35AM #4
koolpoi
Posts: 6,518

Apr 16, 2012 -- 8:16AM, davelaw40 wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 7:29AM, koolpoi wrote:

Davelaw has often impressed me with his creative theology.In a recent post he said that if Jesus had sinned,the universe would have ended and there was also a danger of such an end when Jesus died.Is this a widely accepted Christian idea?It it accepted by some sects and rejected by others?How could a sin by Jesus have ended the universe?Doesn't God decide what is sin and if so how how could anything He did be sin unless He wished it to be so?So how could there be any danger that anything He did could end the universe?And how could Jesus' death have put the universe at risk?



Jesus would caused God to sin.




How does that occur if Jesus is God?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 12:47PM #5
Blü
Posts: 25,062

dave


Jesus would caused God to sin.


You don't think that destroying every breathing thing on earth bar a boatload is a sin?


Nor that ordering genocide and mass rape are sins?


Nor that demanding human sacrifice to yourself is a sin?  Let alone accepting it?


Nor that inseminating women without their consent is a sin?


Nor that sending evil on someone is a sin?


Nor that telling lies is a sin?


Nor that destoying some innocent person's livelihood for a bet is a sin?


Nor that religious intolerance is a sin?


Yahweh did all of those things, and more, as the bible states clearly.  I think none of them is trivial and all of them are morally indefensible - that is, they're sins.


(If they're not sins, then it's fine for us to do them too, right?)


So were you correct, the universe would have ceased to exist long ago.



And Jesus sinned, as Iwantamotto points out -


If you berate your family, you're not honoring your father and mother.

If you vandalize someone else's property, you're as good as stealing from them.

If you aren't fruitful and multiply, you disobey Yahweh's direct commandment.

If you don't keep the Sabbath holy, it doesn't matter that you offer a glib excuse.

While Jesus never kills anyone in the gospels, in Revelation he takes part in global genocide.


&c.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 9:29PM #6
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,318

Apr 16, 2012 -- 7:29AM, koolpoi wrote:

Davelaw has often impressed me with his creative theology.In a recent post he said that if Jesus had sinned,the universe would have ended and there was also a danger of such an end when Jesus died.Is this a widely accepted Christian idea?It it accepted by some sects and rejected by others?How could a sin by Jesus have ended the universe?Doesn't God decide what is sin and if so how how could anything He did be sin unless He wished it to be so?So how could there be any danger that anything He did could end the universe?And how could Jesus' death have put the universe at risk?



Somewhere in the NT it says that Christ is the "glue" that holds everything together, also, all things were created through Him. Therefore, it seems reasonable that if Jesus had sinned (that being specifically possible because Jesus was fully human) Jesus would have remained dead, and all the things He was responsible for as God the Son would.....be.....neglected (unless the Father and the Holy Spirit could....cover...).... No Christ, no "glue", no universe.


I stated earlier, I guess on the Trinity thread, that the possibility of Jesus sinning is the reason for the Trinity. A separable Jesus the Christ, Second Person of the Trinity, allows for His-death-only, and the survival of the Father and the Holy Spirit.


As I think the whole universe was designed specifically for humanoid intelligence, if Jesus had sinned, no redemption, we'd all ultimately die anyway, so.........Dave might just be right.......


sdp 

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory. Alfred Korzybski
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 1:01AM #7
Eliascomes
Posts: 994

Apr 16, 2012 -- 7:29AM, koolpoi wrote:

Davelaw has often impressed me with his creative theology.In a recent post he said that if Jesus had sinned,the universe would have ended and there was also a danger of such an end when Jesus died.Is this a widely accepted Christian idea?It it accepted by some sects and rejected by others?How could a sin by Jesus have ended the universe?Doesn't God decide what is sin and if so how how could anything He did be sin unless He wished it to be so?So how could there be any danger that anything He did could end the universe?And how could Jesus' death have put the universe at risk?



 The purpose of Jesus is to prevent the termination of life here on earth. We became so corrupted that our sacrifices that give us a chance for redemption became worthless; God had to keep His contract which He made in the present of Abraham; According to the contract, the violators must provide a sacrifice that's worthy for atonement. Since Jesus gave his life so that we can be atone from our past violations, We should give our life listening to Him while He teaching us how to behave here on earth and start practicing what He teaches. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 1:42AM #8
Blü
Posts: 25,062

Elias


The purpose of Jesus is to prevent the termination of life here on earth.

We became so corrupted that our sacrifices that give us a chance for redemption became worthless;

God had to keep His contract which He made in the present of Abraham; According to the contract, the violators must provide a sacrifice that's worthy for atonement.


I can't find any of that in my copy of the bible.  What text do you rely on for each of those propositions?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 6:13AM #9
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,084

NOTE: *bumped up* to post #49


Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 7:57AM #10
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Because IF Jesus is God and God violates His nature the Universe would cease to exist.

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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