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Switch to Forum Live View Which is more emotionally powerful?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 6:46AM #11
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Its Yes and No



Every human has made the wrong choice and chosen to miss the mark; but its not in our DNA

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 6:52AM #12
Kwinters
Posts: 21,179

Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:46AM, davelaw40 wrote:


Its Yes and No


Every human has made the wrong choice and chosen to miss the mark; but its not in our DNA




I didn't ask about our genetic structure.


I asked about the human condition.


Is sin a fundamental (belonging to one's innate or ingrained characteristics) of the human condition*?


And if yes, how could a man be called human if he never experienced the causes, the dilemmas or outcomes of sin?



*(wiki) the unique and believed to be inescapable features of being human in a social, cultural, and personal context. It can be described as the irreducible part of humanity that is inherent and not connected to factors such as gender, race or class. It includes concerns such as a search for purpose, search for gratification, sense of curiosity, the inevitability of isolation, or the fear of death.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 6:55AM #13
costrel
Posts: 6,226

Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:53AM, davelaw40 wrote:

your arrogance is showing


"man suit" shows your contempt for the concept


that Jesus though divine in origin was a real man with real struggles who really died


On the contrary, "man suit" fits very well with Late Antique Christian Gnostic concepts that Jesus wore his humanity like a cloak and then stripped it off when he died on the Cross, just as each individual will eventually have to strip off his or her own materialistic flesh like a garment upon death as ascetics strip off their clothes to go naked in the wilderness. 


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 6:56AM #14
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

sin is not inevitable-its just the most likely outcome



temptation is inevitable

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 6:58AM #15
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:55AM, costrel wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:53AM, davelaw40 wrote:

your arrogance is showing


"man suit" shows your contempt for the concept


that Jesus though divine in origin was a real man with real struggles who really died


On the contrary, "man suit" fits very well with Late Antique Christian Gnostic concepts that Jesus wore his humanity like a cloak and then stripped it off when he died on the Cross, just as each individual will eventually have to strip off his or her own materialistic flesh like a garment upon death as ascetics strip off their clothes to go naked in the wilderness. 





which doctrines offended the common  laity and were deemed heresies

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 7:07AM #16
koolpoi
Posts: 6,333

Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:01AM, Adelphe wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 4:34AM, Kwinters wrote:

Which moves you more?

The story of a god who pretends at being mortal for a bit, pretends to die while wearing a man suit but doesn't and then performs a miracle he had done multiple times before.



Straw man.


In Christianity, God Himself condescends to enter fully into human suffering (both in solidarity and in order to redeem it and them) and pours Himself out (sacrifices Himself) so that they can be ontologically changed into living again.




Or

The story of a fallible mortal human who emotionally commits himself to a divine belief that it transforms his life and the life of those around him, who then goes and makes the ultimate sacrifice for his beliefs.  And his god, so touched, raises him from the dead and is so moved decides to never again ask people to sacrifice to him, just believe and live based on the model of this one human.
...



Sappy, b-grade, superhero comic book.




So that last comment summarizes your view of all the people (including Christians) who have suffered for heartfelt beliefs?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 7:12AM #17
Kwinters
Posts: 21,179

Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:56AM, davelaw40 wrote:


sin is not inevitable-its just the most likely outcome


temptation is inevitable




I am not sure that your concepts are that distinct.  Temptation requires sinful drives, a fantasy of committing the sin, one is forced to make a decision to sin or not.


To have that capacity is the human condition.


Are you suggesting that a person could lead a sinless life, and if you are, how is that even possible?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 7:13AM #18
koolpoi
Posts: 6,333

Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:25AM, davelaw40 wrote:


if Jesus had sinned once; the Universe would have ceased to exist



there was the real possibility when Jesus died that the Universe would cease




Could you expand on this?I've never heard of this idea that sin by Jesus would have ended the universe.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 7:14AM #19
Kwinters
Posts: 21,179

Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:58AM, davelaw40 wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:55AM, costrel wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:53AM, davelaw40 wrote:

your arrogance is showing


"man suit" shows your contempt for the concept


that Jesus though divine in origin was a real man with real struggles who really died


On the contrary, "man suit" fits very well with Late Antique Christian Gnostic concepts that Jesus wore his humanity like a cloak and then stripped it off when he died on the Cross, just as each individual will eventually have to strip off his or her own materialistic flesh like a garment upon death as ascetics strip off their clothes to go naked in the wilderness. 





which doctrines offended the common  laity and were deemed heresies





They were only called heresies by other Christians, who themselves were called heretics by the Gnostics and others.


Don't allow the bias of the writers of history to dupe you into believing they were somehow objectively correct.


After all, the teachings of Jesus taken just at face value are insufficient to be a practicing Christian. 

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 7:17AM #20
costrel
Posts: 6,226

Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:58AM, davelaw40 wrote:

which doctrines offended the common  laity and were deemed heresies


What is this "common laity" to which you refer? As Church history demonstrates, Arianism, Montanism, gnostic forms of Christianity, and Manichaeanism all seem to have been rather popular in the Late Antique period and were considered serious threats to the so-called orthodox. In fact, some of the important theologians of the Late Antique Church -- Origen, Tertullian, and Evagrius of Pontus -- ended up being deemed guilty of heresy. Even the writings of Clement of Alexandria are considered to contain heretical and gnostic ideas. And as the Nag Hammadi Codices demonstrate, some of the gnostics considered other gnostics to be heretical!


And as far as heresies are concerned, please remember that according to the Catholicism that I was raised on, any form of Christianity besides the Holy Roman Catholic Church -- including Lutheranism, Methodism, Presbyterianism, Baptism, and Pentecostalism -- are all heresies. So you can throw around this heresy concept if you like, but just remember that from the perspective of the clergy who instructed me, whatever form of non-Catholic Christianity you follow is also heresy. So I really don't know what you expect to gain by talking about heresy with an ex-Catholic who was raised to view all forms of Christianity that arose either during or after the Protestant Reformation to be heretical. 

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