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Switch to Forum Live View Which is more emotionally powerful?
3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 4:34AM #1
Kwinters
Posts: 22,876
Which moves you more?

The story of a god who pretends at being mortal for a bit, pretends to die while wearing a man suit but doesn't and then performs a miracle he had done multiple times before.

Or

The story of a fallible mortal human who emotionally commits himself to a divine belief that it transforms his life and the life of those around him, who then goes and makes the ultimate sacrifice for his beliefs.  And his god, so touched, raises him from the dead and is so moved decides to never again ask people to sacrifice to him, just believe and live based on the model of this one human.

Seems to  me that in a bid to make Jesus divine, those early Christians really destroyed a much more beautiful, much more profound story.
Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 5:01AM #2
Adelphe
Posts: 28,744

Apr 16, 2012 -- 4:34AM, Kwinters wrote:

Which moves you more?

The story of a god who pretends at being mortal for a bit, pretends to die while wearing a man suit but doesn't and then performs a miracle he had done multiple times before.



Straw man.


In Christianity, God Himself condescends to enter fully into human suffering (both in solidarity and in order to redeem it and them) and pours Himself out (sacrifices Himself) so that they can be ontologically changed into living again.




Or

The story of a fallible mortal human who emotionally commits himself to a divine belief that it transforms his life and the life of those around him, who then goes and makes the ultimate sacrifice for his beliefs.  And his god, so touched, raises him from the dead and is so moved decides to never again ask people to sacrifice to him, just believe and live based on the model of this one human.
...



Sappy, b-grade, superhero comic book.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 5:24AM #3
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

no where does it ever say when discussing Christ divinity that His humanity was a pretense

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 5:45AM #4
Kwinters
Posts: 22,876

Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:24AM, davelaw40 wrote:


no where does it ever say when discussing Christ divinity that His humanity was a pretense




Come on Dave. If you actually think that a god was born wearing a mansuit he is, by definition, not a man.  He is fundamentally different from all other humans. He is not a human being by some divine-flesh wearing hybred.


His struggles cannot be real struggles if he knows he is a god.  Death is not something a god would fear.  Pain is not something a god would fear.


Humans sin. Did Jesus ever sin, according to your belief system?  Since sin is the theologically defining characteristics of humans, how could anyone who never knew or committed a sin even be considered to be theologically human?


To be a man, a real man, a human man he would have to be completely without any divine aspect as we all are.  And if he was a man, a real man, a human man, then he was not, could not have been a god at birth or pre-existed or be the firstborn of creation.


And that is why the story sucks now.


We can't relate to a god going through the motions of pretending to be a mortal sinful human, but we can relate to the desire to transcend the ordinary and commit ourselves to a perfection.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 5:53AM #5
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:45AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:24AM, davelaw40 wrote:


no where does it ever say when discussing Christ divinity that His humanity was a pretense




Come on Dave. If you actually think that a god was born wearing a mansuit he is, by definition, not a man.  He is fundamentally different from all other humans. He is not a human being by some divine-flesh wearing hybred.


His struggles cannot be real struggles if he knows he is a god.  Death is not something a god would fear.  Pain is not something a god would fear.


To be a man, a real man, a human man he would have to be completely without any divine aspect as we all are.  And if he was a man, a real man, a human man, then he was not, could not have been a god at birth or pre-existed or be the firstborn of creation.


And that is why the story sucks now.


We can't relate to a god going through the motions of pretending to be a mortal sinful human, but we can relate to the desire to transcend the ordinary and commit ourselves to a perfection.




your arrogance is showing


"man suit" shows your contempt for the concept


that Jesus though divine in origin was a real man with real struggles who really died

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 5:59AM #6
Kwinters
Posts: 22,876

Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:53AM, davelaw40 wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:45AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:24AM, davelaw40 wrote:


no where does it ever say when discussing Christ divinity that His humanity was a pretense




Come on Dave. If you actually think that a god was born wearing a mansuit he is, by definition, not a man.  He is fundamentally different from all other humans. He is not a human being by some divine-flesh wearing hybred.


His struggles cannot be real struggles if he knows he is a god.  Death is not something a god would fear.  Pain is not something a god would fear.


To be a man, a real man, a human man he would have to be completely without any divine aspect as we all are.  And if he was a man, a real man, a human man, then he was not, could not have been a god at birth or pre-existed or be the firstborn of creation.


And that is why the story sucks now.


We can't relate to a god going through the motions of pretending to be a mortal sinful human, but we can relate to the desire to transcend the ordinary and commit ourselves to a perfection.




your arrogance is showing


"man suit" shows your contempt for the concept


that Jesus though divine in origin was a real man with real struggles who really died




It is not arrogance, it is logic. Making personal attacks doesn't make your argument any better you know. You just make Jesus sad.


Here is a simple question: Is sin a fundamental component of the human condition?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 6:11AM #7
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:59AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:53AM, davelaw40 wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:45AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:24AM, davelaw40 wrote:


no where does it ever say when discussing Christ divinity that His humanity was a pretense




Come on Dave. If you actually think that a god was born wearing a mansuit he is, by definition, not a man.  He is fundamentally different from all other humans. He is not a human being by some divine-flesh wearing hybred.


His struggles cannot be real struggles if he knows he is a god.  Death is not something a god would fear.  Pain is not something a god would fear.


To be a man, a real man, a human man he would have to be completely without any divine aspect as we all are.  And if he was a man, a real man, a human man, then he was not, could not have been a god at birth or pre-existed or be the firstborn of creation.


And that is why the story sucks now.


We can't relate to a god going through the motions of pretending to be a mortal sinful human, but we can relate to the desire to transcend the ordinary and commit ourselves to a perfection.




your arrogance is showing


"man suit" shows your contempt for the concept


that Jesus though divine in origin was a real man with real struggles who really died




It is not arrogance, it is logic. Making personal attacks doesn't make your argument any better you know. You just make Jesus sad.


Here is a simple question: Is sin a fundamental component of the human condition?




Now or at creation?


what you are really asking Is: if one accepts the doctrine of the sinless Jesus-
was He sinless because He was Divine or sinless because He made conscious Human choices not to sin?


that was meant as a personal observation not a personal attack; if it was mere logic you would have refrained from using emotionally charged phrases such as MANSUIT and words like PRETEND that are designed to evoke a visceral response from the devout

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 6:16AM #8
Kwinters
Posts: 22,876

Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:11AM, davelaw40 wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:59AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:53AM, davelaw40 wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:45AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:24AM, davelaw40 wrote:


no where does it ever say when discussing Christ divinity that His humanity was a pretense




Come on Dave. If you actually think that a god was born wearing a mansuit he is, by definition, not a man.  He is fundamentally different from all other humans. He is not a human being by some divine-flesh wearing hybred.


His struggles cannot be real struggles if he knows he is a god.  Death is not something a god would fear.  Pain is not something a god would fear.


To be a man, a real man, a human man he would have to be completely without any divine aspect as we all are.  And if he was a man, a real man, a human man, then he was not, could not have been a god at birth or pre-existed or be the firstborn of creation.


And that is why the story sucks now.


We can't relate to a god going through the motions of pretending to be a mortal sinful human, but we can relate to the desire to transcend the ordinary and commit ourselves to a perfection.




your arrogance is showing


"man suit" shows your contempt for the concept


that Jesus though divine in origin was a real man with real struggles who really died




It is not arrogance, it is logic. Making personal attacks doesn't make your argument any better you know. You just make Jesus sad.


Here is a simple question: Is sin a fundamental component of the human condition?




Now or at creation?


what you are really asking Is: if one accepts the doctrine of the sinless Jesus-
was He sinless because He was Divine or sinless because He made conscious Human choices not to sin?


that was meant as a personal observation not a personal attack; if it was mere logic you would have refrained from using emotionally charged phrases such as MANSUIT and words like PRETEND that are designed to evoke a visceral response from the devout




There was no creation.  Humans evolved.


Is sin a fundamental component of the human condition?


Yes or no.


If Jesus was utterly without sin he was not meaninfully or definitionally human, if he did sin he was not a god.


So, if he was a god he was a god in a mansuit pretending to be a human. A god cannot un-be god and then re-become god.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 6:25AM #9
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

if Jesus had sinned once; the Universe would have ceased to exist



there was the real possibility when Jesus died that the Universe would cease

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 6:40AM #10
Kwinters
Posts: 22,876

Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:25AM, davelaw40 wrote:


if Jesus had sinned once; the Universe would have ceased to exist


there was the real possibility when Jesus died that the Universe would cease




That is just weird, but you are avoiding the question:


Is sin a fundamental component of the human condition?


Yes or no?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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