Apr 16, 2012 -- 4:34AM, Kwinters wrote:

Which moves you more?

The story of a god who pretends at being mortal for a bit, pretends to die while wearing a man suit but doesn't and then performs a miracle he had done multiple times before.

Straw man.

In Christianity, God Himself condescends to enter fully into human suffering (both in solidarity and in order to redeem it and them) and pours Himself out (sacrifices Himself) so that they can be ontologically changed into living again.

Or

The story of a fallible mortal human who emotionally commits himself to a divine belief that it transforms his life and the life of those around him, who then goes and makes the ultimate sacrifice for his beliefs.  And his god, so touched, raises him from the dead and is so moved decides to never again ask people to sacrifice to him, just believe and live based on the model of this one human.
...

Sappy, b-grade, superhero comic book.

Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:24AM, davelaw40 wrote:

no where does it ever say when discussing Christ divinity that His humanity was a pretense

Come on Dave. If you actually think that a god was born wearing a mansuit he is, by definition, not a man.  He is fundamentally different from all other humans. He is not a human being by some divine-flesh wearing hybred.

His struggles cannot be real struggles if he knows he is a god.  Death is not something a god would fear.  Pain is not something a god would fear.

Humans sin. Did Jesus ever sin, according to your belief system?  Since sin is the theologically defining characteristics of humans, how could anyone who never knew or committed a sin even be considered to be theologically human?

To be a man, a real man, a human man he would have to be completely without any divine aspect as we all are.  And if he was a man, a real man, a human man, then he was not, could not have been a god at birth or pre-existed or be the firstborn of creation.

And that is why the story sucks now.

We can't relate to a god going through the motions of pretending to be a mortal sinful human, but we can relate to the desire to transcend the ordinary and commit ourselves to a perfection.

Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:53AM, davelaw40 wrote:

Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:45AM, Kwinters wrote:

Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:24AM, davelaw40 wrote:

no where does it ever say when discussing Christ divinity that His humanity was a pretense

Come on Dave. If you actually think that a god was born wearing a mansuit he is, by definition, not a man.  He is fundamentally different from all other humans. He is not a human being by some divine-flesh wearing hybred.

His struggles cannot be real struggles if he knows he is a god.  Death is not something a god would fear.  Pain is not something a god would fear.

To be a man, a real man, a human man he would have to be completely without any divine aspect as we all are.  And if he was a man, a real man, a human man, then he was not, could not have been a god at birth or pre-existed or be the firstborn of creation.

And that is why the story sucks now.

We can't relate to a god going through the motions of pretending to be a mortal sinful human, but we can relate to the desire to transcend the ordinary and commit ourselves to a perfection.

your arrogance is showing

"man suit" shows your contempt for the concept

that Jesus though divine in origin was a real man with real struggles who really died

It is not arrogance, it is logic. Making personal attacks doesn't make your argument any better you know. You just make Jesus sad.

Here is a simple question: Is sin a fundamental component of the human condition?

Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:11AM, davelaw40 wrote:

Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:59AM, Kwinters wrote:

Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:53AM, davelaw40 wrote:

Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:45AM, Kwinters wrote:

Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:24AM, davelaw40 wrote:

no where does it ever say when discussing Christ divinity that His humanity was a pretense

Come on Dave. If you actually think that a god was born wearing a mansuit he is, by definition, not a man.  He is fundamentally different from all other humans. He is not a human being by some divine-flesh wearing hybred.

His struggles cannot be real struggles if he knows he is a god.  Death is not something a god would fear.  Pain is not something a god would fear.

To be a man, a real man, a human man he would have to be completely without any divine aspect as we all are.  And if he was a man, a real man, a human man, then he was not, could not have been a god at birth or pre-existed or be the firstborn of creation.

And that is why the story sucks now.

We can't relate to a god going through the motions of pretending to be a mortal sinful human, but we can relate to the desire to transcend the ordinary and commit ourselves to a perfection.

your arrogance is showing

"man suit" shows your contempt for the concept

that Jesus though divine in origin was a real man with real struggles who really died

It is not arrogance, it is logic. Making personal attacks doesn't make your argument any better you know. You just make Jesus sad.

Here is a simple question: Is sin a fundamental component of the human condition?

Now or at creation?

what you are really asking Is: if one accepts the doctrine of the sinless Jesus-
was He sinless because He was Divine or sinless because He made conscious Human choices not to sin?

that was meant as a personal observation not a personal attack; if it was mere logic you would have refrained from using emotionally charged phrases such as MANSUIT and words like PRETEND that are designed to evoke a visceral response from the devout

There was no creation.  Humans evolved.

Is sin a fundamental component of the human condition?

Yes or no.

If Jesus was utterly without sin he was not meaninfully or definitionally human, if he did sin he was not a god.

So, if he was a god he was a god in a mansuit pretending to be a human. A god cannot un-be god and then re-become god.

Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:25AM, davelaw40 wrote:

if Jesus had sinned once; the Universe would have ceased to exist

there was the real possibility when Jesus died that the Universe would cease

That is just weird, but you are avoiding the question:

Is sin a fundamental component of the human condition?

Yes or no?