But you have only the thinnest, most wishful, in-the-face-of-the-evidence arguments for saying that Jesus IS Yahweh.
There are many things the NT writers declare about him, and many things that he says about himself.
They are all things that would not be said by, or of, a mere man. Who says, of a mere man, that he is God (John 1:1) or that all things were created by him and for him? (Colossians 1)
What mere man says he is the light of the world, the bread of life, the only way to the Father? Who would tell someone that if they want to inherit eternal life, that they must follow him?
---------
Is there a single person who has ever lived that made such claims… and was not a psychopath? No sane, "good" man makes the claims of himself that Jesus did.
OK, so you read C.S. Lewis.
What else you got, because Lier Lunatic Lord has been debunked. A good case can be made for the either of the first 2, Lewis' objections just don't stand up.
There are really only three choices if Jesus said those things attributed to him.
And in the course of this discussion, Blu and I are operating as if he had said what is attributed to him.
There is a fourth option, of course.
People later turned him into legend.
Which, according to the available texts and sources, is the only option that can be substantiated with evidence.
No.
Blu and I had established, for the sake of argument, that Jesus had said those words. That being the case, that he didn't say those words is not an option.
The opinion that early Chrtistians believed Christ was one with the Father is equally valid.
Then you'll present us with the evidence for your view, I take it?
It's all there in the Gospel, along with the history of the Church. I expect now your demand for "Evidence" means you want Lab-Coat God, but I don't play those puppet-god games.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier.
It's all there in the Gospel, along with the history of the Church.
I call that the Library of Congress defense, when you wave your hand in the general direction of the library and defend your claims by saying, It's in there.
Or I could reply, That's what they all say.
Either way, you need to substantiate your claim with specific references, or acknowledge you can't.
Then when one believes IN Jesus, what exactly must one be trusting him to be or to do?
Just be a nice guy?
Jesus gives commands (like "love one another") and makes declarations ("I am with you always", etc).
Believing in him is a matter taking him at his word… and would result in obedience to him/his commands and trusting that his declarations are really true.
But of course we don't have his words. We have later writers ideas of what they wanted him to say (eg the Gospel of John), or rewriting other people's writings of what he said, or the earliest attempts (we have) to write down stories that had been in circulation for 30s in a different language by people they'd never met.
I find it disturbing for you to quote, with great conviction and passion, the words of Jesus over and over to support your political ideology.
And then to post here that we don't have his words.
Hello? "Jesus said this, Jesus said that, and you need to vote a certain way because Jesus said these things. Oh, and we don't have his words."
I have no idea what you refer to in your first sentence, however it is a fact that we do not have the words of Jesus.
He never wrote anything down, so we cannot have his words. Instead what we have is the Greek version of some of the stories and oral tradition that was in circulation decades after his death.
It makes no sense to say we have the words of Jesus. We have things we can say we are pretty sure could go back to this historical Jesus (e.g. Talitha cumi and Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?)
But stories that are not translatable from Greek back into Aramaic (e.g. the phrase 'born again' in the GoJ) are not credibly connected to the historical Jesus.
I also make an effort to distinguish Jesus as depicted in the gospel of _____ .
The Jesuses of Mark, Matthew, Luke, John and even Paul are different Jesuses.
Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert
“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.
If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”
But you have only the thinnest, most wishful, in-the-face-of-the-evidence arguments for saying that Jesus IS Yahweh.
There are many things the NT writers declare about him, and many things that he says about himself.
They are all things that would not be said by, or of, a mere man. Who says, of a mere man, that he is God (John 1:1) or that all things were created by him and for him? (Colossians 1)
What mere man says he is the light of the world, the bread of life, the only way to the Father? Who would tell someone that if they want to inherit eternal life, that they must follow him?
---------
Is there a single person who has ever lived that made such claims… and was not a psychopath? No sane, "good" man makes the claims of himself that Jesus did.
OK, so you read C.S. Lewis.
What else you got, because Lier Lunatic Lord has been debunked. A good case can be made for the either of the first 2, Lewis' objections just don't stand up.
There are really only three choices if Jesus said those things attributed to him.
And in the course of this discussion, Blu and I are operating as if he had said what is attributed to him.
There is a fourth option, of course.
People later turned him into legend.
Which, according to the available texts and sources, is the only option that can be substantiated with evidence.
No.
Blu and I had established, for the sake of argument, that Jesus had said those words. That being the case, that he didn't say those words is not an option.
People today are taking the words attributed to Jesus and twisting them to make him into a legend, so it is not an excluded option.
Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert
“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.
If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”
Then when one believes IN Jesus, what exactly must one be trusting him to be or to do?
Just be a nice guy?
Jesus gives commands (like "love one another") and makes declarations ("I am with you always", etc).
Believing in him is a matter taking him at his word… and would result in obedience to him/his commands and trusting that his declarations are really true.
But of course we don't have his words. We have later writers ideas of what they wanted him to say (eg the Gospel of John), or rewriting other people's writings of what he said, or the earliest attempts (we have) to write down stories that had been in circulation for 30s in a different language by people they'd never met.
I find it disturbing for you to quote, with great conviction and passion, the words of Jesus over and over to support your political ideology.
And then to post here that we don't have his words.
Hello? "Jesus said this, Jesus said that, and you need to vote a certain way because Jesus said these things. Oh, and we don't have his words."
I have no idea what you refer to in your first sentence, however it is a fact that we do not have the words of Jesus.
He never wrote anything down, so we cannot have his words. Instead what we have is the Greek version of some of the stories and oral tradition that was in circulation decades after his death.
It makes no sense to say we have the words of Jesus. We have things we can say we are pretty sure could go back to this historical Jesus (e.g. Talitha cumi and Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?)
But stories that are not translatable from Greek back into Aramaic (e.g. the phrase 'born again' in the GoJ) are not credibly connected to the historical Jesus.
I also make an effort to distinguish Jesus as depicted in the gospel of _____ .
The Jesuses of Mark, Matthew, Luke, John and even Paul are different Jesuses.
I see no basis for assuming Jesus did not have the conversation with Nichodemus or tell the parable of the Good Samaritan or the Prodical Son or teach on the last judgment. How do you prove for example that the people are lying when they repeat what Jesus said? Do you also deny that Socrates taught what he is said to have taught? He did not write anything down either. Maybe Plato lied.
But stories that are not translatable from Greek back into Aramaic (e.g. the phrase 'born again' in the GoJ) are not credibly connected to the historical Jesus.
thats only true if a teknon in the Empire did not speak KOINE
It's all there in the Gospel, along with the history of the Church.
I call that the Library of Congress defense, when you wave your hand in the general direction of the library and defend your claims by saying, It's in there.
Or I could reply, That's what they all say.
Either way, you need to substantiate your claim with specific references, or acknowledge you can't.
Ehrman cites this as one of the examples we have of the earliest, prePauline theological traditions of the Jesus community:
Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
...Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne; he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses. Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.
...Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?
And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.
What, here is the theology being preached and to which Jews were converting?
1) Jesus was a man chosen by God to be the messiah and lord over the Jews;
2) Jesus was the physical descendent from the male line of David;
3) God raised Jesus from the dead;
4) God exhaulted Jesus by his right hand, Jesus received the promise of the holy spirit from God;
5) To be members of the Jesus movement Jews had to repent of sin, be baptised in the name of their new messiah and lord, and this would bestow upon them the holy spirit God bestowed upon Jesus.
6) This was the understanding of Jesus taught by his earliest followers, and the non-blasphemous theology to which Jews zealous for the law converted.
Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert
“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.
If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”
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