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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 1:30AM #1
Blü
Posts: 24,851

John 3:


16 ["]For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.["]



What's the mimimum requirement that you have to believe about Jesus before Yahweh will give you everlasting life?

Is it enough if you think that -


1.  he was Yahweh's human agent authorized to make such a promise?


or must you also think that -


2.  he was literally Yahweh's son?


or that -


3.  he was a supernatural being?


or that -


4.  he was Yahweh's equal?


or that (by amendment subsequent to jonny's post) -


5.  he IS Yahweh?



Is there something else you have to believe about him before you can qualify?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 2:02AM #2
jonny42
Posts: 6,704

Apr 16, 2012 -- 1:30AM, Blü wrote:


John 3:


16 ["]For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.["]



What's the mimimum requirement that you have to believe about Jesus before Yahweh will give you everlasting life?

Is it enough if you think that -


1.  he was Yahweh's human agent authorized to make such a promise?


or must you also think that -


2.  he was literally Yahweh's son?


or that -


3.  he was a supernatural being?


or that -


4.  he was Yahweh's equal?



Is there something else you have to believe about him before you can qualify?




Believe "in" is not the same thing as believe "that."   (Jesus says one is to believe "in" him.)


It seems odd that anyone who didn't think he was God himself... would tell others that they must believe in him to have eternal life.    He must have believed he was God.



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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 2:13AM #3
Blü
Posts: 24,851

jonny


It seems odd that anyone who didn't think he was God himself... would tell others that they must believe in him to have eternal life.


What Jesus actually said was that if you believe in Jesus, Yahweh (not Jesus) will give you everlasting life.



He must have believed he was God.


So is your answer 3 - Jesus is a supernatural being?


Or 4 - Jesus is the equal of Yahweh? 


Or a new 5 -  you have to believe Jesus IS Yahweh


before you can have everlasting life?




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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 2:17AM #4
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Apr 16, 2012 -- 2:02AM, jonny42 wrote:

It seems odd that anyone who didn't think he was God himself... would tell others that they must believe in him to have eternal life. He must have believed he was God.


This is oddball "logic".


It is a fact NOT ONLY that Jesus NEVER, in the words attributed to him in the Gospels, refers to himself, purely and simply, as God, BUT ALSO that, when the Jewish leaders accuse him of making himself equal to God (‘you, a man, are claiming to be God’ - John 10:33), he corrects their misconception with unmistakable words (‘I am the Son of God’ - John 10:34-36).


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 3:50AM #5
Adelphe
Posts: 28,707

Apr 16, 2012 -- 1:30AM, Blü wrote:


or that (by amendment subsequent to jonny's post) -


5.  he IS Yahweh?



Is there something else you have to believe about him before you can qualify?



Paul writes in Romans 10: 


because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12  For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.


directly quoting Joel 2,


30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord [YHWH] shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.


Jesus is Lord [YHWH].


AMEN.







Apr 16, 2012 -- 2:13AM, Blü wrote:


What Jesus actually said was that if you believe in Jesus, Yahweh (not Jesus) will give you everlasting life.



Where did He say that?


I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.


since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.


For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.


For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.


but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 5:04AM #6
Kwinters
Posts: 21,912

Apr 16, 2012 -- 1:30AM, Blü wrote:


John 3:


16 ["]For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.["]


What's the mimimum requirement that you have to believe about Jesus before Yahweh will give you everlasting life?




Well, according to the words attributed to the apostles very soon after the death of Jesus this is the message his followers preached and to which people converted:



Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both lord and messiah, this Jesus whom ye crucified.  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?


And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.



What was this gospel?


1) It was a message for Jews.


2) They asserted that God made Jesus their king and messiah.


3) To be part of the Jesus movement one had to repent of their sins, be baptised in the name of their new messiah and the transaction would result in the bestowing of the holy spirit. This, apparently, was all that was required to be part of the Kingdom of God, based on the text.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 10:03AM #7
jonny42
Posts: 6,704

Apr 16, 2012 -- 2:17AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 2:02AM, jonny42 wrote:

It seems odd that anyone who didn't think he was God himself... would tell others that they must believe in him to have eternal life. He must have believed he was God.


This is oddball "logic".


It is a fact NOT ONLY that Jesus NEVER, in the words attributed to him in the Gospels, refers to himself, purely and simply, as God, BUT ALSO that, when the Jewish leaders accuse him of making himself equal to God (‘you, a man, are claiming to be God’ - John 10:33), he corrects their misconception with unmistakable words (‘I am the Son of God’ - John 10:34-36).


MdS




Salvation was always a matter of believing in God.   Adam and Eve chose not to believe in God, and it manifest itself through disobedience.   Righteousness was granted to Abram because he "believed (in) God."


For a Jew to come along and proclaim that salvation comes from believing in him, he is conferring upon himself the position that he knows is God's.   Therefore, he must have believed he was God.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 10:07AM #8
jonny42
Posts: 6,704

Apr 16, 2012 -- 2:13AM, Blü wrote:


jonny


It seems odd that anyone who didn't think he was God himself... would tell others that they must believe in him to have eternal life.


What Jesus actually said was that if you believe in Jesus, Yahweh (not Jesus) will give you everlasting life.



He must have believed he was God.


So is your answer 3 - Jesus is a supernatural being?


Or 4 - Jesus is the equal of Yahweh? 


Or a new 5 -  you have to believe Jesus IS Yahweh


before you can have everlasting life?







Christians believe that Jesus is one person of the three-person supernatural being, Yahweh.


To believe in Jesus as anyone else would be a matter of not believing in him.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 10:17AM #9
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Apr 16, 2012 -- 10:03AM, jonny42 wrote:

Apr 16, 2012 -- 2:17AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Apr 16, 2012 -- 2:02AM, jonny42 wrote:

It seems odd that anyone who didn't think he was God himself... would tell others that they must believe in him to have eternal life. He must have believed he was God.


This is oddball "logic".


It is a fact NOT ONLY that Jesus NEVER, in the words attributed to him in the Gospels, refers to himself, purely and simply, as God, BUT ALSO that, when the Jewish leaders accuse him of making himself equal to God (‘you, a man, are claiming to be God’ - John 10:33), he corrects their misconception with unmistakable words (‘I am the Son of God’ - John 10:34-36).


Salvation was always a matter of believing in God.   Adam and Eve chose not to believe in God, and it manifest itself through disobedience.   Righteousness was granted to Abram because he "believed (in) God."


For a Jew to come along and proclaim that salvation comes from believing in him, he is conferring upon himself the position that he knows is God's.   Therefore, he must have believed he was God.


More oddball "logic".


You obviously choose to ignore everything in Scripture that doesn't jibe with your unwarranted claims.


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 12:21PM #10
Blü
Posts: 24,851

Adelphe


Jesus is Lord


So in terms of the OP you think the answer is 1, yes?

That if you believe Jesus was Yahweh's human agent authorized to promise eternal life, and in that sense was Lord, that suffices to get you eternal life?


If not, which of the options in the OP covers it?




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