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Switch to Forum Live View John the Baptist and the forgiveness of sins
2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 5:30AM #1
Kwinters
Posts: 21,936

John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Then went out unto him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about the Jordan; and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

And he came into all the region round about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins;

John answered them, saying, I baptize in water: in the midst of you standeth one whom ye know not, even he that cometh after me, the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to unloose. These things were done in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

John preached baptism for the remission of sins. People went to him confessing their sins, were baptised and thus gain the remission of their sins.

Did John have the authority to forgive those sins? Did he have the authority to act for God in the remission of sins?

If John's baptisms had the effect of cleansing sins, does that mean he was divine?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 7:14AM #2
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

 preached the baptism of repentance 


repentence remits sin 


Baptism was a public statement of same




so, no and no

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 8:15AM #3
Kwinters
Posts: 21,936

Apr 15, 2012 -- 7:14AM, davelaw40 wrote:


 preached the baptism of repentance 


repentence remits sin 


Baptism was a public statement of same




so, no and no




What were you saying no to? There were three questions.


So if no, what was happening? 

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 8:20AM #4
57
Posts: 22,970

Apr 15, 2012 -- 5:30AM, Kwinters wrote:


John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Then went out unto him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about the Jordan; and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

And he came into all the region round about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins;

John answered them, saying, I baptize in water: in the midst of you standeth one whom ye know not, even he that cometh after me, the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to unloose. These things were done in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

John preached baptism for the remission of sins. People went to him confessing their sins, were baptised and thus gain the remission of their sins.

Did John have the authority to forgive those sins? Did he have the authority to act for God in the remission of sins?

If John's baptisms had the effect of cleansing sins, does that mean he was divine?




Unlike Jesus, John could not forgive sin because John was not God. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 4:46PM #5
Kwinters
Posts: 21,936

Apr 15, 2012 -- 8:20AM, 57 wrote:


Apr 15, 2012 -- 5:30AM, Kwinters wrote:


John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Then went out unto him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about the Jordan; and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

And he came into all the region round about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins;

John answered them, saying, I baptize in water: in the midst of you standeth one whom ye know not, even he that cometh after me, the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to unloose. These things were done in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

John preached baptism for the remission of sins. People went to him confessing their sins, were baptised and thus gain the remission of their sins.

Did John have the authority to forgive those sins? Did he have the authority to act for God in the remission of sins?

If John's baptisms had the effect of cleansing sins, does that mean he was divine?




Unlike Jesus, John could not forgive sin because John was not God. 




But he was, according to the gospels. 

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 6:11PM #6
Eliascomes
Posts: 976

Apr 15, 2012 -- 4:46PM, Kwinters wrote:

Apr 15, 2012 -- 8:20AM, 57 wrote:


Apr 15, 2012 -- 5:30AM, Kwinters wrote:


John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Then went out unto him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about the Jordan; and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

And he came into all the region round about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins;

John answered them, saying, I baptize in water: in the midst of you standeth one whom ye know not, even he that cometh after me, the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to unloose. These things were done in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

John preached baptism for the remission of sins. People went to him confessing their sins, were baptised and thus gain the remission of their sins.

Did John have the authority to forgive those sins? Did he have the authority to act for God in the remission of sins?

If John's baptisms had the effect of cleansing sins, does that mean he was divine?




Unlike Jesus, John could not forgive sin because John was not God. 




But he was, according to the gospels. 


 John had use this gesture of washing the body from sins hoping that God will forgive them.


Jonah 3:6
When Jonah’s warning reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 6:12PM #7
57
Posts: 22,970

Apr 15, 2012 -- 4:46PM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 15, 2012 -- 8:20AM, 57 wrote:


Apr 15, 2012 -- 5:30AM, Kwinters wrote:


John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Then went out unto him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about the Jordan; and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

And he came into all the region round about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins;

John answered them, saying, I baptize in water: in the midst of you standeth one whom ye know not, even he that cometh after me, the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to unloose. These things were done in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

John preached baptism for the remission of sins. People went to him confessing their sins, were baptised and thus gain the remission of their sins.

Did John have the authority to forgive those sins? Did he have the authority to act for God in the remission of sins?

If John's baptisms had the effect of cleansing sins, does that mean he was divine?




Unlike Jesus, John could not forgive sin because John was not God. 




But he was, according to the gospels. 




HUH????

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 6:46PM #8
Burnman
Posts: 3,303

Apr 15, 2012 -- 5:30AM, Kwinters wrote:


John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Then went out unto him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about the Jordan; and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

And he came into all the region round about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins;

John answered them, saying, I baptize in water: in the midst of you standeth one whom ye know not, even he that cometh after me, the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to unloose. These things were done in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

John preached baptism for the remission of sins. People went to him confessing their sins, were baptised and thus gain the remission of their sins.

Did John have the authority to forgive those sins? Did he have the authority to act for God in the remission of sins?

If John's baptisms had the effect of cleansing sins, does that mean he was divine?





1. All three synoptic Gospels agree that he performed a baptizm that he himself says is inferior to what was to come. So no, he did not have the authority to remit sin on God's behalf. That answers those two questions


2. No, he was not divine. His answer to those who ask if he were the Christ acknowelges that he himself recognised that one mightier than he is to follow. That answers your third question.


Of course, your own quote above provides those answers. This leads a reader to wonder whether you even read the quote before you ask these questions.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 7:33PM #9
dio
Posts: 4,919

Forgiveness of sin was a big money maker for the temple. John and Jesus saying one does not need to go to the temple anymore to forgive sins messed with the temple revenues. John and Jesus were a threat to the Temple authorities. You don't need to go to the temple to have your sins forgiven is like telling Catholics they don't have to go to church to pay their tithes on Sundays. Temple authorities did not like John or Jesus because John and Jesus were making the Temple cult irrelevant. John and Jesus were a threat to the herodian roman appointed rich temple cult.


In today's terms John and Jesus were like the 99% ers and the temple aristocracy were like the 1% ers.  


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 7:39PM #10
57
Posts: 22,970

Apr 15, 2012 -- 7:33PM, dio wrote:


Forgiveness of sin was a big money maker for the temple. John and Jesus saying one does not need to go to the temple anymore to forgive sins messed with the temple revenues. John and Jesus were a threat to the Temple authorities. You don't need to go to the temple to have your sins forgiven is like telling Catholics they don't have to go to church to pay their tithes on Sundays. Temple authorities did not like John or Jesus because John and Jesus were making the Temple cult irrelevant. John and Jesus were a threat to the temple culy.




Jesus being God did say they made His house into a den of theives.

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