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Switch to Forum Live View John the Baptist and the forgiveness of sins
3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 8:49AM #31
Kwinters
Posts: 22,876

Apr 17, 2012 -- 6:33AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Kwinters


Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:31AM, Kwinters wrote:

Apr 16, 2012 -- 4:49AM, Adelphe wrote:

In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said,


“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
Prepare the way of the Lord;
    make his paths straight.’”


This tells us that at a minimum, salvation is a two-"step" process.


[a] Forgiveness of sins in Judaism was happening long before and long after that was written.


[b] This just demonstrates John's motivation.


[c] He was an apocalypticist, like Jesus and like Paul.  He was preaching that people should get right with god and he was facilitating that process by baptising them so their sins would be forgiven when the end came.



[a] Please indicate precisely what Biblical passage(s) you are referring to, then we can discuss it (them).


[b] That is?


[c] This still doesn't imply that John the Baptist was and/or considered himself empowered to forgive sins. In fact he affirms explicitly that his baptism of repentance is in view of the coming of the Messiah.


MdS




a 1


Kings 8:33-34


When thy people Israel be smitten down before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee, and shall turn again to thee, and confess thy name, and pray, and make supplication unto thee in this house: Then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thy people Israel, and bring them again unto the land which thou gavest unto their fathers.


Isa 55:6-7



Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.


Use of water to spiritual cleanse and prepare:


Eze 36:25


Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.


Ex 19:10


And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes..


See also: www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/2456...


According to rabbinical teachings, which dominated even during the existence of the Temple (Pes. viii. 8), Baptism, next to circumcision and sacrifice, was an absolutely necessary condition to be fulfilled by a proselyte to Judaism (Yeb. 46b, 47b; Ker. 9a; 'Ab. Zarah 57a; Shab. 135a; Yer. Kid. iii. 14, 64d). Circumcision, however, was much more important, and, like baptism, was called a "seal" (Schlatter, "Die Kirche Jerusalems," 1898, p. 70). But as circumcision was discarded by Christianity, and the sacrifices had ceased, Baptism remained the sole condition for initiation into religious life. The next ceremony, adopted shortly after the others, was the imposition of hands, which, it is known, was the usage of the Jews at the ordination of a rabbi. Anointing with oil, which at first also accompanied the act of Baptism, and was analogous to the anointment of priests among the Jews, was not a necessary condition.



b


John's motivation:


'John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.'


c


John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins...And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.'



Baptism + repentence = remission of sins.  That is exactly what the texts says. The people came, confessed their sins and were baptised, ergo by the logic of the preceding sentence, they received remission of their sins.


Even Jesus recognises its efficacy:


The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or from men?....And they answered Jesus and say, We know not. And Jesus saith unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.



Jesus is citing the same authority he recognised John having.



[Of course John was never even sure if Jesus was the messiah or not. After his baptism John kept his own set of followers distinct from the followers of Jesus, with his own practices:


And John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting: and they come and say unto him, Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?]


Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 9:52AM #32
jlb32168
Posts: 13,792

Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:31PM, davelaw40 wrote:

its the old translators argument; is eis: for, unto, or because of?  iow, did the baptism forgive the sins or symbolize the repentence which forgave the sins?


You are correct, Dave, and none of the Church Fathers, for whom the language of Scripture was the language with which they had after dinner conversation or ordered a gyro on the corner, use eis in their scriptural commentaries, in the sense that the the act of baptism actually bestowed forgiveness upon the baptised. 


Even today in the Christian churches that hold baptism as a mysterion/sacrament, they don't teach that baptism forgives sins since infants can't sin, according to those church's theologies.  

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 3:49PM #33
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Apr 17, 2012 -- 8:49AM, Kwinters wrote:




See also: www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/2456...


According to rabbinical teachings, which dominated even during the existence of the Temple (Pes. viii. 8), Baptism, next to circumcision and sacrifice, was an absolutely necessary condition to be fulfilled by a proselyte to Judaism (Yeb. 46b, 47b; Ker. 9a; 'Ab. Zarah 57a; Shab. 135a; Yer. Kid. iii. 14, 64d). Circumcision, however, was much more important, and, like baptism, was called a "seal" (Schlatter, "Die Kirche Jerusalems," 1898, p. 70). But as circumcision was discarded by Christianity, and the sacrifices had ceased, Baptism remained the sole condition for initiation into religious life. The next ceremony, adopted shortly after the others, was the imposition of hands, which, it is known, was the usage of the Jews at the ordination of a rabbi. Anointing with oil, which at first also accompanied the act of Baptism, and was analogous to the anointment of priests among the Jews, was not a necessary condition.






Once again conflating Mikveh purification with John's and Jesus' Baptism

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 6:27AM #34
Kwinters
Posts: 22,876

Apr 17, 2012 -- 3:49PM, davelaw40 wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 8:49AM, Kwinters wrote:



See also: www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/2456...


According to rabbinical teachings, which dominated even during the existence of the Temple (Pes. viii. 8), Baptism, next to circumcision and sacrifice, was an absolutely necessary condition to be fulfilled by a proselyte to Judaism (Yeb. 46b, 47b; Ker. 9a; 'Ab. Zarah 57a; Shab. 135a; Yer. Kid. iii. 14, 64d). Circumcision, however, was much more important, and, like baptism, was called a "seal" (Schlatter, "Die Kirche Jerusalems," 1898, p. 70). But as circumcision was discarded by Christianity, and the sacrifices had ceased, Baptism remained the sole condition for initiation into religious life. The next ceremony, adopted shortly after the others, was the imposition of hands, which, it is known, was the usage of the Jews at the ordination of a rabbi. Anointing with oil, which at first also accompanied the act of Baptism, and was analogous to the anointment of priests among the Jews, was not a necessary condition.





Once again conflating Mikveh purification with John's and Jesus' Baptism




Maybe you should have read the link before commenting?



'...With reference to Ezek. xxxvi. 25, "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean," R. Akiba, in the second century, made the utterance: "Blessed art thou, O Israel! Before whom dost thou cleanse thyself? and who cleanses thee? Thy Father in heaven!" (Yoma viii. 9).


Accordingly, Baptism is not merely for the purpose of expiating a special transgression, as is the case chiefly in the violation of the so-called Levitical laws of purity; but it is to form a part of holy living and to prepare for the attainment of a closer communion with God...'



Thus between repentence and baptism John, his followers, Jesus, his followers, and other Jews who followed both believed that they were cleansed of sins and brought closer to God through baptism.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 8:12AM #35
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,489

davelaw40:  iow, did the baptism forgive the sins or symbolize the repentence which forgave the sins?


Well, since Jesus' death and resurrection doesn't seem to cure people of sin, I say the death and resurrection are merely symbols to describe the restorative process of repentance.  :)

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 4:30PM #36
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,100

Kwinters


Apr 17, 2012 -- 8:49AM, Kwinters wrote:

Apr 17, 2012 -- 6:33AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

[a] Please indicate precisely what Biblical passage(s) you are referring to [that would affirm that "[f]orgiveness of sins in Judaism was happening long before ... that [Matthew 3:3] was written"], then we can discuss it (them).


[b] That ["John's motivation"] is?


[c] This [that "[h]e was an apocalypticist"] still doesn't imply that John the Baptist was and/or considered himself empowered to forgive sins. In fact he affirms explicitly that his baptism of repentance is in view of the coming of the Messiah.


a1


[1] Kings 8:33-34 When thy people Israel be smitten down before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee, and shall turn again to thee, and confess thy name, and pray, and make supplication unto thee in this house: Then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thy people Israel, and bring them again unto the land which thou gavest unto their fathers. [calach]


Isa 55:6-7 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. [calach]


[a2] Use of water to spiritual cleanse and prepare:


Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.


Ex 19:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes.


[a3] See also: www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/2456...


According to rabbinical teachings, which dominated even during the existence of the Temple (Pes. viii. 8), Baptism, next to circumcision and sacrifice, was an absolutely necessary condition to be fulfilled by a proselyte to Judaism (Yeb. 46b, 47b; Ker. 9a; 'Ab. Zarah 57a; Shab. 135a; Yer. Kid. iii. 14, 64d). Circumcision, however, was much more important, and, like baptism, was called a "seal" (Schlatter, "Die Kirche Jerusalems," 1898, p. 70). But as circumcision was discarded by Christianity, and the sacrifices had ceased, Baptism remained the sole condition for initiation into religious life. The next ceremony, adopted shortly after the others, was the imposition of hands, which, it is known, was the usage of the Jews at the ordination of a rabbi. Anointing with oil, which at first also accompanied the act of Baptism, and was analogous to the anointment of priests among the Jews, was not a necessary condition. [Baptism, @ jewishencyclopedia.com]


b


John's motivation:


[Mark 1:4-5] 'John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.'


c


John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins...And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.'


Baptism + repentence = remission of sins.  That is exactly what the texts says. The people came, confessed their sins and were baptised, ergo by the logic of the preceding sentence, they received remission of their sins.


[c1] Even Jesus recognises its efficacy:


The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or from men?....And they answered Jesus and say, We know not. And Jesus saith unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.


Jesus is citing the same authority he recognised John having.


[d] [Of course John was never even sure if Jesus was the messiah or not. After his baptism John kept his own set of followers distinct from the followers of Jesus, with his own practices:


And John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting: and they come and say unto him, Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?]


[a1] OK, both in 1 Kings 8:33-34 and in Isa 55:6-7 there is a form of forgiveness (the Hebrew word in both is סָלַח, calach - H5545), BUT it is merely formal forgiveness, the acknowledgement of a "payment" obtained through the imperfect sacrifice of the OT. What is missing is the intention, the pure heart, that only with Jesus and in Jesus is present, as Hebrews explains perfectly:


1 For the law possesses a shadow of the good things to come but not the reality itself, and is therefore completely unable, by the same sacrifices offered continually, year after year, to perfect those who come to worship. 2 For otherwise would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers would have been purified once for all and so have no further consciousness of sin? 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year after year. 4 For the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins. 5 So when he came into the world, he said, “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me. 6 Whole burnt offerings and sin-offerings you took no delight in. (Heb 10:1-6; cp. Ps 40:6)


[a2] Exactly: "cleanse and prepare". And that is what John's Baptism was about.


[a3] Interesting historical account, but, of course, it has nothing to do with "Biblical passage(s)".


[b] Precisely! The baptism is an external sign of repentance, "unto remission of sins" (Greek eis aphesin amartiôn) that is in view of the forgiveness of sins. Administered by John? Not at all: by the Messiah, when he comes. See again at next point.


[c] Not at all: your "logic" is hasty and faulty. See [b]


[c1] Jesus recognized that John had the authority of preparing people, with his baptism of repentance, for the forgiveness that the Messiah would bestow upon them / earn for them


[d] I agree with this: the idea of Messiah that John had (like Peter, like most Jews of his time), was quite different from the unexpected "model" provided by Jesus.


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 4:40AM #37
Kwinters
Posts: 22,876

Apr 18, 2012 -- 4:30PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


 [a1] OK, both in 1 Kings 8:33-34 and in Isa 55:6-7 there is a form of forgiveness (the Hebrew word in both is סָלַח, calach - H5545), BUT it is merely formal forgiveness, the acknowledgement of a "payment" obtained through the imperfect sacrifice of the OT. What is missing is the intention, the pure heart, that only with Jesus and in Jesus is present, as Hebrews explains perfectly:



I would like to see your textual evidence for that interpretation, because clearly both Jesus and John are depicted in the text as viewing John as having authority to offer the remission of sins by baptism if the person repents.


Was John's authority to baptize from heaven or from humans?


This text indicates Jesus saw John as having the authority. And this remission is clearly expressed by Mark, Luke and Matthew, Matthew makes it especially clear.


Mark: John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins.


Matthew: And in those days cometh John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, saying, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand....Then went out unto him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about the Jordan; and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins...I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance


Luke: ...the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. And he came into all the region round about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins;

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 7:56AM #38
Marcion
Posts: 2,883

Churches have been using the nonsensical idea of sin to keep the masses in line for centuries.


The closest something comes to "sin" is transgressions against your neighbor.Your sin will be held against you until your neighbor forgives you; no pedophile in a box can help you.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 10:15AM #39
SecondSonOfDavid
Posts: 3,344

Apr 19, 2012 -- 7:56AM, Marcion wrote:


Churches have been using the nonsensical idea of sin to keep the masses in line for centuries.




Marcion, why do you say 'sin' is nonsensical?


Just watching the news this morning, I heard accounts of woman who murdered another woman to steal a baby.  I heard about a nurse who stole money from a charity helping cancer patients pay for surgery.  I heard about a man who tried to justify shooting and killing an unarmed man.  I heard about politicians caught lying about their actions, about acts of violence, stealing, and hatred.


It may sound quaint, but I think the concept of sin is a sadly apt description of the general human condition.   


That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 1:34PM #40
Marcion
Posts: 2,883

Apr 19, 2012 -- 10:15AM, SecondSonOfDavid wrote:


Apr 19, 2012 -- 7:56AM, Marcion wrote:


Churches have been using the nonsensical idea of sin to keep the masses in line for centuries.




Marcion, why do you say 'sin' is nonsensical?


Just watching the news this morning, I heard accounts of woman who murdered another woman to steal a baby.  I heard about a nurse who stole money from a charity helping cancer patients pay for surgery.  I heard about a man who tried to justify shooting and killing an unarmed man.  I heard about politicians caught lying about their actions, about acts of violence, stealing, and hatred.


It may sound quaint, but I think the concept of sin is a sadly apt description of the general human condition.   





Humans are capable of soaring with the angels or wallowing in the mud with the swine, that is what makes them such complex creatures. I must admit the swine far outnumber the angels.

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