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Switch to Forum Live View John the Baptist and the forgiveness of sins
2 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 3:26PM #81
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Jun 1, 2012 -- 7:38AM, Adelphe wrote:

May 30, 2012 -- 6:16AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

... Is the lady trying to suggest that her "LOL 'kay, funny..." [Adelphe, #72] is an ... "answer" ...


It was already answered (...) by the member (...) who originally (...) posted the verses (...) and to whom you (...) directed your inquiry (...)


Oh, but Dave's reply at post #70 was NOT accepted by MdS, was it, so, if the lady wanted to "answer" (besides laughing), she could have taken issue with MdS' post #71 ...


... but obviously the lady shares in the Protestant belief that, while the faith in Jesus Christ must be proclaimed in front of the Church (and therefore mediated by the Church), repentance for one's sins can sufficiently be some "inner act", that does NOT need to be mediated by the Church ... [&]



[MdS] Incapable to argue from the Scripture (in fact, and manifestly, perfectly failing in her effort to do so) the lady finds nothing better than resorting to her "ontological change" un-scriptural lingo ...

I've argued from Scripture.  You disagree.  As I said, enjoy your...darkness.


NO, the lady has NOT, and (thank goodness) the Scripture has no notion of any heathen-philosophical "ontological change" ...


btw, here's another one for you to remain in the dark about: 


Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. (2 Cor 5:17)


Of course any interpretations in terms of "ontological change" un-scriptural lingo of this, and of any other similar verse, is heathen-philosophical ... [$]



[MdS] I sincerely hope for the lady that she does not take the above quotation of 2 Cor 13:5 —or for that matter, other even stronger Pauline expressions, like Gal 2:20— as some sort of literal (and rather spooky ...) "Christ possession" ...

The Holy Spirit dwells within the Christian.


See above. [$]


Or, I am afraid to say, you aren't a Christian.


This is (truly) ad hominem AND ad hominem abusive ... beware ...


"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you."  (Rom 8:9-11)


See above. [$]



[MdS] Then the lady is invited to explain why, according to her, the affirmation that ...

“... if your nature has permanently changed  - born again, your intent is not to sin” [Dosto, #46]


... would be “Exactly right” [Adelphe, #47].


[lady's mere assertion omitted]


Does she mean that, whatever one does after his/her born again (mythical) "ontological change", one is saved regardless of anything one does? [#]


YES OR NO?



One "was saved, is being saved, and will be saved" if one's intent is not to sin.


See above. [&]



[MdS] ... so Dosto, #46 would be no less than the "authentic interpretation" of 1 John 5:18.

It's the "authentic interpretation" of the overwhelming majority of Christianity.


It most certainly is NOT for 1.16 billion Catholics, for whom "intent ... not to sin" is NOT sufficient for salvation ...



[MdS] ... It is entirely obvious (which is totally unsurprising for a Protestant) that the lady does not have a clue about the Catholic (that is the only fully Christian) Doctrine of the Sacraments ...

Of course I do.  Quite obviously I reject sacerdotalism.


Sure, the lady adopts the Protestant "do it yourself kit" approach ...



[MdS] ... BTW she has shown, elsewhere, to have a high opinion of Peter Kreeft's opinions ...

[lady's mere assertion omitted]


... obviously she failed to appreciate how central The Sacraments have been in his conversion from Calvinism to Catholicism ...



Some Christians just have a need for the smells and bells that are frequently absent in Protestant churches.


Obviously the lady must believe that the motive for the conversion from Calvinism to Catholicism of Peter Kreeft —of whose opinions she allegedly has such high opinion ...— is very superficialindeed ...


Some Christians just have a need for Christ.


Christians are not really Christians unless they are part of a community, THE community founded by Christ: THE Church ...


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 4:31PM #82
Adelphe
Posts: 28,699

Jun 1, 2012 -- 3:26PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Oh, but Dave's reply at post #70 was NOT accepted by MdS, was it,



Who cares?



so, if the lady wanted to "answer" (besides laughing), she could have taken issue with MdS' post #71 ...



Not that your "unacceptance" of Dave's reply is any concern of mine (or obviously Dave's) it's already being addressed via this discussion.


NO, the lady has NOT, and (thank goodness) the Scripture has no notion of any heathen-philosophical "ontological change" ...



I've argued from Scripture.  You disagree.  As I said, enjoy your...darkness


Of course any interpretations in terms of "ontological change" un-scriptural lingo of this, and of any other similar verse, is heathen-philosophical ... [$]



I've argued from Scripture.  You disagree.  As I said, enjoy your...darkness.


See above. [$]



I've argued from Scripture.  You disagree.  As I said, enjoy your...darkness.


This is (truly) ad hominem AND ad hominem abusive ... beware ...



Don't be a fool.  "You" as in "one" exactly as I go on to quote.


See above.



I've argued from Scripture.  You disagree.  As I said, enjoy your...darkness.


See above. [&]



Sorry, lost track with the "legenda" and all the "see aboves" in the text reply box. I'm sure the following reply is appropriate, however:


I've argued from Scripture.  You disagree.  As I said, enjoy your...darkness.


It most certainly is NOT for 1.16 billion Catholics, for whom "intent ... not to sin" is NOT sufficient for salvation ...



Who said it was "sufficient" for Protestants?  It's simply the result of that which you already deny so it's no longer relevant.


Sure, the lady adopts the Protestant "do it yourself kit" approach ...



Whatever.


Obviously the lady must believe that the motive for the conversion from Calvinism to Catholicism of Peter Kreeft —of whose opinions she allegedly has such high opinion ...— is very superficialindeed ...



I don't consider any of them to be "superficial" reasons.  I'm actually quite thrilled His church offers a community every Christian can enjoy and feel comfortable in.


Christians are not really Christians unless they are part of a community, THE community founded by Christ: THE Church ...


MdS




I am sure I am absolutely correct that this wouldn't be monstrous hypocrisy in the style of "truly ad hominem AND ad hominem abusive ... beware ..." aren't I.


Therefore, I happily agree.




 

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 5:35AM #83
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Jun 1, 2012 -- 4:31PM, Adelphe wrote:

Jun 1, 2012 -- 3:26PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Oh, but Dave's reply at post #70 was NOT accepted by MdS, was it, [irrelevant comment omitted] so, if the lady wanted to "answer" (besides laughing), she could have taken issue with MdS' post #71 ...


Not that your "unacceptance" of Dave's reply is any concern of mine (or obviously Dave's) it's already being addressed via this discussion.


No, it has not, anyway certainly NOT by the lady.



[MdS] NO, the lady has NOT ["argued from Scripture"], and (thank goodness) the Scripture has no notion of any heathen-philosophical "ontological change" ...

I've argued from Scripture.  You disagree.  As I said, enjoy your...darkness


Let the lady enjoy her delusion.




Or, I am afraid to say, you aren't a Christian.

[MdS] This is (truly) ad hominem AND ad hominem abusive ... beware ...

Don't be a fool.  "You" as in "one" exactly as I go on to quote. [Rom 8:9-11]


No comment. Any honest reader can judge in honesty ...





[MdS] ... so Dosto, #46 would be no less than the "authentic interpretation" of 1 John 5:18.

It's the "authentic interpretation" of the overwhelming majority of Christianity.

[MdS] It most certainly is NOT for 1.16 billion Catholics, for whom "intent ... not to sin" is NOT sufficient for salvation ...

Who said it was "sufficient" for Protestants?  It's simply the result of that which you already deny so it's no longer relevant.


And what, pray tell, would be "that which you already deny so it's no longer relevant"?



[MdS] Sure, the lady adopts the Protestant "do it yourself kit" approach ...

Whatever.


Indeed ...



[MdS] Obviously the lady must believe that the motive for the conversion from Calvinism to Catholicism of Peter Kreeft —of whose opinions she allegedly has such high opinion ...— is very superficial indeed ...

I don't consider any of them to be "superficial" reasons.  I'm actually quite thrilled His church offers a community every Christian can enjoy and feel comfortable in.


This is the previous exchange ...


[MdS, #79] It is entirely obvious (which is totally unsurprising for a Protestant) that the lady does not have a clue about the Catholic (that is the only fully Christian) Doctrine of the Sacraments ... BTW she has shown, elsewhere, to have a high opinion of Peter Kreeft's opinions ... obviously she failed to appreciate how central The Sacraments have been in his conversion from Calvinism to Catholicism ...


[Adelphe, #80] Some Christians just have a need for the smells and bells that are frequently absent in Protestant churches.


[MdS, #81] Obviously the lady must believe that the motive for the conversion from Calvinism to Catholicism of Peter Kreeft —of whose opinions she allegedly has such high opinion ...— is very superficial indeed ...


... no further comment needed. Any honest reader can judge for him/herself in honesty ...




Some Christians just have a need for Christ.

[MdS] Christians are not really Christians unless they are part of a community, THE community founded by Christ: THE Church ...

[irrelevant comment omitted]


... I happily agree.


Good! SmileCool


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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