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Switch to Forum Live View How do you obtain Eternal Life..the JW way?
3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 1:26AM #181
mrjordan
Posts: 2,207

Apr 18, 2012 -- 1:07AM, Kemmer wrote:


A mess? Yes I agree. Men fail. Now what?



So you still believe everything the anciet bible writers would have you bekieve? 




Why would Jehovah lead me astray? He gains nothing to see me die. I having nothing to look forward to but death without Jehovah.


It is not a belief, it is my faith. I have more faith in Jehovah than the sun will rise tomorrow.


Because I know that Jehovah looks forward to the day that he can dwell among men again. Revelation 21:3

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 8:50AM #182
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Apr 17, 2012 -- 7:47PM, 57 wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 6:29PM, mrjordan wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 6:05PM, 57 wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 3:12PM, Newtonian wrote:


Good post, Marken and Hi! btw Smile


And, of course, John 3:16 has already been posted!




You notice John 3:16 doesn't mention...works? yes?




Ah but is not the whole chapter showing John's works as a faithful teacher who's loyalty is to Jesus and Jehovah? If the writers of the bible did not do their work, we would not have a bible at all. Even Nicodemus realizes John as a teacher in John 3:2.


"He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”




The problem is mjordan...you are not as loyal as you think.  You have just lost any chance of salvation.  


Do you not see it? Salvation is free.  Only those who are saved again can do Gods works...and we still fail.  But God is full of grace and mercy.  


As I have asked numerous times....how do you know if you, a JW is saved? 





Wow...can't help myself here.  God is full of mercy, and accords us the mercy we accord others.



Regarding whether we know if we are saved, Paul, who was converted directly by Jesus, and if anyone had a right to feel he was 'once saved, always saved,' didn't teach any such doctrine.


www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Phi...


Paul taught us to work out our salvation with 'fear and trembling.' 


www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%2...


Paul taught there was 'promise' of the life to come, and that we must 'labor and strive' to lay hold on it.


Free gift, still requires some effort to take hold of it.  I am always happy to take my example from Paul, who evidently had the humble attitude that he was still doing what he was told to do, and in expectation of his reward, not that he had 'laid hold of it already.'   He knew even he didn't do the 'complete will of God'  (Romans 7:21-24) but that he would need to keep at it, he likened it to a marathon race.  And he knew he could become disapproved, so that it was necessary to keep striving.


(1 Corinthians 9:24-27) 24 Do YOU not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that YOU may attain it. 25 Moreover, every man taking part in a contest exercises self-control in all things. Now they, of course, do it that they may get a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible one. 26 Therefore, the way I am running is not uncertainly; the way I am directing my blows is so as not to be striking the air; 27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.


And I don't believe Paul ever expressed a sentiment like 'I'm saved and you've just lost all chance you ever had.'  That would seem downright arrogant and prideful.



Regarding pride, adultery is wrong, sex is not wrong, used properly and in the right context.  It works the same with pride. 


Even wikipedia helps us see there is the pride that is a 'vice' and a pride that is a 'virtue.' 


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride


Pride that is a 'becoming (befitting) or dignified sense' that results in 'self-respect and 'self-esteem, is not a 'vice.' 


If the angel who became Satan had 'gloried' in his opportunity to be the 'covering cherub' and enjoyed his 'befitting self-respect' in that position, instead of allowing that 'virtue' to become twisted into a 'vice,' he would still be a wonderfully happy angel overseeing mankind's affairs.



We should daily, frequently acknowledge that we could do nothing if God had not make it possible.  'By him we have life, and move, and exist.'  However, we can take some credit for what we do well, what we do that is correct and right, and that is no sin.  God takes all  credit that we can do what is right, we can take some credit when we do do what is right.

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 9:48AM #183
Kemmer
Posts: 16,610

Because I know that Jehovah looks forward to the day that he can dwell among men again.



You make God sound like a schoolgirl looking forward to the prom.  If he really wanted to dwell among men, he could do so at any time.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 1:29PM #184
marken
Posts: 3,709

Apr 17, 2012 -- 6:05PM, 57 wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 3:12PM, Newtonian wrote:


Good post, Marken and Hi! btw Smile


And, of course, John 3:16 has already been posted!




You notice John 3:16 doesn't mention...works? yes?



In my opinion,  yes,  it  does.   It  says  that  one  must   believe  in him if  they do  not  want  to perish.  One  of  the  works  that  is  necessary in this  believing is  explained  by  Jesus  when  he  was  praying  to his  Father  at  John 17:3,that  is  that  we  know  or  understand  who is  the  true  God  and  the  reason  that  he  sent  his  son  to  the  earth.  We  are  not  born with  this  knowledge,  so  God  provided  the  scriptures  to  teach us  the  truth  about  these  things.  Mankind  has  devised  much  false hood  regarding  both  these  truths  and  it  is  only  by  a  study  of  the  scriptures  that  we  can  come  to really  KNOW  the  truth.  It  takes  work  to  read  and  study, yes, it  can  be  pleasurable or difficult,  but  either  way  it  takes  work.  If  you  are  a  person  that  thinks  you know the true God and the  one  he  sent  forth,  just  because  of  your  emotions, then  I  would  tell  you  that  you  do not.  If  you  do  not  read  and  study  the  scriptures for  yourself but  just  believe  whatever  you  are  told,  you  likely  cannot  really  KNOW  these  two  truths. 


If  you  are  a  thinking  person  when  you  read  John  3:16,  some  questions  that  you  might ask  are:


1.Why  is  Jesus  called  God's  only  Son?


2.  what  does  perish mean  as  far  as  the  bible  is  concerned?


3.  What  should  I  do  to  gain  this  eternal  life  promised  in  this  verse?


Even  further  reading the  next  6 verses


(a  work)  will help  you in  answering these  questions. 


with  affection  from  Marken

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 6:09PM #185
Kemmer
Posts: 16,610

Why would Jehovah lead me astray?



It's not "Jehovah" who's leading you astray.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 6:18PM #186
57
Posts: 23,420

Apr 17, 2012 -- 8:05PM, mrjordan wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 7:47PM, 57 wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 6:29PM, mrjordan wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 6:05PM, 57 wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 3:12PM, Newtonian wrote:


Good post, Marken and Hi! btw Smile


And, of course, John 3:16 has already been posted!




You notice John 3:16 doesn't mention...works? yes?




Ah but is not the whole chapter showing John's works as a faithful teacher who's loyalty is to Jesus and Jehovah? If the writers of the bible did not do their work, we would not have a bible at all. Even Nicodemus realizes John as a teacher in John 3:2.


"He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”




The problem is mjordan...you are not as loyal as you think.  You have just lost any chance of salvation.  


Do you not see it? Salvation is free.  Only those who are saved again can do Gods works...and we still fail.  But God is full of grace and mercy.  


As I have asked numerous times....how do you know if you, a JW is saved? 




1. The good news is that I do not have to answer to any man about my loyalty to Jehovah.


I never said you did. 



2. Where salvation is free, I know that I must WORK forward through the teachings of the bible to take it.


If you must work...it is not free.



3. My failures will be judged by Jesus who has tasted death and knows what I am facing in this world that is ruled by Satan that wants to take my gift away from me.


Satan can't take the gift of salvation away from you. 



4. I will not know if I am saved until that day comes.


How sad.  TODAY I know that I am saved.


I will show Jesus my faith AND my works and let him decide. I prey that he sees me worthy as a loyal servant to Jehovah.


No man is worthy. Romans 3:10 "As it is written "There is no one righteous, not even one.


My friend, I feel I must warn you that the starting line and finish line are NOT next to each other.


I don't understand what that means.



 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 6:24PM #187
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Dragonfly - I second the recommendation that you read our Bible teach book, which is available online here:


www.watchtower.org/e/bh/article_00.htm


Many of your Bible questions are answered there - of course, please look up the Scriptures cited in your own copy of the Bible.


And I also should repeat the warning about 'worship of angels '- I am not sure you understand this Scriptural warning:


(Colossians 2:18) . . . Let no man deprive YOU of the prize who takes delight in a [mock] humility and a form of worship of the angels, “taking his stand on” the things he has seen. . .


The Bible encourages us to approach the father only through Jesus, not angels - see John 14:6.


Jesus could have called angels to his aid - but he didn't.   Why?


(Matthew 26:53) . . .Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than twelve legions of angels?


 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 6:38PM #188
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

57 - Yes, I see you do not understand.  I might add you have judged Mr. Jordan - and Jesus warns us against judging others in his sermon on the mount! 


I.e., we should never tell a person he is or is not saved, since we are not authorized to judge - Jesus had been given this privilege, not us.


Of course, we can teach people to observe all Jesus commanded as per Matthew 28:19,20. 


You seem to advocate belief in Jesus is all that is necessary for salvation.   Remember, James did not simply state that faith without works is dead - he also stated that the demons are believers:


(James 2:18-20) . . .Nevertheless, a certain one will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith apart from works is inactive?


Now, quite the opposite of the false doctrine 'once saved always saved' - the Bible states that those 'saved' who fall away cannot be revived to repentance - in effect, only those 'saved' are at risk of committing the unforgiveable sin and thus becoming, like Judas Isacariot, beyond repentance.    Were you aware of the following Scriptural accounts?


(Hebrews 6:4-6) . . . For it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, 5 and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, 6 but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame.


Cp.:


(Hebrews 10:26-29) . . . For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. 28 Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. 29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 6:47PM #189
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

57 - Also, you do not understand the finish line as you admitted - essentially this is summed up simply in this verse:


(Matthew 10:22) . . .he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. . .


(Matthew 24:13) . . .But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. . .


(Mark 13:13) . . .. But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.


Repitition for emphasis!

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 6:56PM #190
57
Posts: 23,420

Apr 18, 2012 -- 8:50AM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 7:47PM, 57 wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 6:29PM, mrjordan wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 6:05PM, 57 wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 3:12PM, Newtonian wrote:


Good post, Marken and Hi! btw Smile


And, of course, John 3:16 has already been posted!




You notice John 3:16 doesn't mention...works? yes?




Ah but is not the whole chapter showing John's works as a faithful teacher who's loyalty is to Jesus and Jehovah? If the writers of the bible did not do their work, we would not have a bible at all. Even Nicodemus realizes John as a teacher in John 3:2.


"He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”




The problem is mjordan...you are not as loyal as you think.  You have just lost any chance of salvation.  


Do you not see it? Salvation is free.  Only those who are saved again can do Gods works...and we still fail.  But God is full of grace and mercy.  


As I have asked numerous times....how do you know if you, a JW is saved? 





Wow...can't help myself here.  God is full of mercy, and accords us the mercy we accord others.


Jesus said no man is good. Mark 10:18.   


Regarding whether we know if we are saved, Paul, who was converted directly by Jesus, and if anyone had a right to feel he was 'once saved, always saved,' didn't teach any such doctrine.


That's pretty much a false statement. 


For example...who so ever believes in Him will have EVERLASTING life...everlasting as if you can't lose it because it is everlasting.


Also....and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand....John 10:28



www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Phi...


Paul taught us to work out our salvation with 'fear and trembling.' 


Exactly, "work out"  I try to work out my salvation everyday and I already Have salvation.


www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%2...


Paul taught there was 'promise' of the life to come, and that we must 'labor and strive' to lay hold on it.


No it doesn't.  The verse talks about godlness being profitable for this present life and the one to come.  It mentions nothing of salvation.


Free gift, still requires some effort to take hold of it.  I am always happy to take my example from Paul, who evidently had the humble attitude that he was still doing what he was told to do, and in expectation of his reward, not that he had 'laid hold of it already.'   He knew even he didn't do the 'complete will of God'  (Romans 7:21-24) but that he would need to keep at it, he likened it to a marathon race.  And he knew he could become disapproved, so that it was necessary to keep striving.


The effort is in realizing you are a sinner, what Jesus did to remove your sins ...and accepting it.  No "works" required.  Notice as you said, it is a free gift.


(1 Corinthians 9:24-27) 24 Do YOU not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that YOU may attain it. 25 Moreover, every man taking part in a contest exercises self-control in all things. Now they, of course, do it that they may get a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible one. 26 Therefore, the way I am running is not uncertainly; the way I am directing my blows is so as not to be striking the air; 27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.


You do know there is two judgements? The White Throne...and the Bema Seat? Your rewards may be lost at the Bema Seat.  That verse is not about salvation.


And I don't believe Paul ever expressed a sentiment like 'I'm saved and you've just lost all chance you ever had.'  That would seem downright arrogant and prideful.


??????  I don't understand your point.


Regarding pride, adultery is wrong, sex is not wrong, used properly and in the right context.  It works the same with pride. 


Even wikipedia helps us see there is the pride that is a 'vice' and a pride that is a 'virtue.' 


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride


Pride that is a 'becoming (befitting) or dignified sense' that results in 'self-respect and 'self-esteem, is not a 'vice.' 


If the angel who became Satan had 'gloried' in his opportunity to be the 'covering cherub' and enjoyed his 'befitting self-respect' in that position, instead of allowing that 'virtue' to become twisted into a 'vice,' he would still be a wonderfully happy angel overseeing mankind's affairs.



We should daily, frequently acknowledge that we could do nothing if God had not make it possible.  'By him we have life, and move, and exist.'  However, we can take some credit for what we do well, what we do that is correct and right, and that is no sin.  God takes all  credit that we can do what is right, we can take some credit when we do do what is right.


Where does the bible say we can take some credit...as if the work of Jesus Christ on the cross wasn't enough.


Following are several verses that acknowledge works will not gain you salvation.  You need to address them if you want to contine with your "works required" Gospel. 


Galations 2:16


nevertheless knowing that  a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by  faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since  by the works of the Law no flesh will be justifie


That's 1. 


Here's another...


Titus 3:5


He saved us,  not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but  according to His mercy, by the  washing of regeneration and  renewing by the Holy Spirit,


...and yet another,


2nd Timoth 1:9


who has  saved us and   called us with a holy  calling,  not according to our works, but according to His own  purpose and grace which was granted us in   Christ Jesus from   all eternity, 


How many versus do you need?  Here's another:


Eph 2:8


For by grace you have been saved  through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is  the gift of God;


Do you need another? OK, here's another;


From Romans...


 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather  according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one who   works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but  believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:


And yet another for Phil 3:9


and may be found in Him, not having  a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,


How many versus do you need to see that works don't grant you salvation? 







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