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Switch to Forum Live View How do you obtain Eternal Life..the JW way?
3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 7:01PM #71
57
Posts: 24,029

Apr 15, 2012 -- 6:52PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


(Philippians 3:13) 13 Brothers, I do not yet consider myself as having laid hold on [it]; but there is one thing about it: Forgetting the things behind and stretching forward to the things ahead,


Here's a thought, with which I most wholeheartedly concur.  Was Paul speaking of salvation?  I cannot think of what else he would mean. 


It could have been sanctification.  Verse 12 talks about becoming perfect.  You seemed to have left that out.


Paul's salvation was to be an 'upward call' and he did not feel certain of it, but was stretching forward (exerting himself vigorously, enduring) to the salvation he looked forward to, the 'things ahead.' 


(Philippians 3:12) . . .Not that I have already received it . . .he says... and


(Philippians 3:16) . . .to what extent we have made progress, let us go on walking orderly in this same routine.


www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Phi...


I'd say Paul sounds not certain, but confident.






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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 7:03PM #72
57
Posts: 24,029

Bumped for the JW folk. You guys seemed to skip right over these versus as if they would go away.


Apr 15, 2012 -- 5:38PM, 57 wrote:


Galations 2:16


nevertheless knowing that  a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by  faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since  by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.


That's 1. 


Here's another...


Titus 3:5


He saved us,  not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but  according to His mercy, by the  washing of regeneration and  renewing by the Holy Spirit,


...and yet another,


2nd Timoth 1:9


who has  saved us and   called us with a holy  calling,  not according to our works, but according to His own  purpose and grace which was granted us in   Christ Jesus from   all eternity, 


How many versus do you need?  Here's another:


Eph 2:8


For by grace you have been saved  through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is  the gift of God;


Do you need another? OK, here's another;


From Romans...


 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather  according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one who   works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but  believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:



And yet another for Phil 3:9


and may be found in Him, not having  a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,



How many versus do you need to see that works don't grant you salvation? 





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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 7:11PM #73
mrjordan
Posts: 2,266

Apr 15, 2012 -- 6:57PM, 57 wrote:



No man is currently without sin. 


Keep in mind, Jesus had no sin...and He died.




He was killed. If Jesus had not been killed would he have ever died?


I never really thought of it. Considering he was fully man and fully God...It's hard to say.





More importantly if Adam and Eve, who had not sinned until they ate from the tree and sinned against God, would they still be alive today?




yes, they would still be alive today.  death was a result of their sin.




I agree with this.


How will sin be removed? Will it just be zapped out of us? How will someone who is a pathological liar have his sin removed from him? Or will he be allowed to tell lies in heaven?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 7:16PM #74
57
Posts: 24,029

Apr 15, 2012 -- 7:11PM, mrjordan wrote:


Apr 15, 2012 -- 6:57PM, 57 wrote:



No man is currently without sin. 


Keep in mind, Jesus had no sin...and He died.




He was killed. If Jesus had not been killed would he have ever died?


I never really thought of it. Considering he was fully man and fully God...It's hard to say.





More importantly if Adam and Eve, who had not sinned until they ate from the tree and sinned against God, would they still be alive today?




yes, they would still be alive today.  death was a result of their sin.




I agree with this.


How will sin be removed? Will it just be zapped out of us? How will someone who is a pathological liar have his sin removed from him? Or will he be allowed to tell lies in heaven?




Do you have apoint with this questioning?


Our sins are imputed to Jesus....Jesus became sin. Then again you knew that.


About the liar....why would his sin removal be any different?


Will he lie in heaven?  When you enter into heaven you be be 100% sanctified.  I can't even begin to understand why you would ask that question.  Unless you are like 8 years old.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 7:21PM #75
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Apr 15, 2012 -- 7:03PM, 57 wrote:


Bumped for the JW folk. You guys seemed to skip right over these versus as if they would go away.


Apr 15, 2012 -- 5:38PM, 57 wrote:


Galations 2:16


nevertheless knowing that  a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by  faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since  by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.


That's 1. 


Here's another...


Titus 3:5


He saved us,  not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but  according to His mercy, by the  washing of regeneration and  renewing by the Holy Spirit,


...and yet another,


2nd Timoth 1:9


who has  saved us and   called us with a holy  calling,  not according to our works, but according to His own  purpose and grace which was granted us in   Christ Jesus from   all eternity, 


How many versus do you need?  Here's another:


Eph 2:8


For by grace you have been saved  through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is  the gift of God;


Do you need another? OK, here's another;


From Romans...


 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather  according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one who   works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but  believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:



And yet another for Phil 3:9


and may be found in Him, not having  a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,



How many versus do you need to see that works don't grant you salvation? 









None of us believes works grant you salvation.


And I've typed that several times.Wink


We believe faith is necessary, right works are necessary, faith and works are interdependent, and obedience is required.



You've skipped this question twice.


Can one be a friend of Christ, and not obey his commandments?

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 7:22PM #76
Oeste
Posts: 3,417

Apr 15, 2012 -- 6:15PM, mrjordan wrote:


He was killed. If Jesus had not been killed would he have ever died?



You have answered your own question.


Jesus was 100% man and 100% God.  He could have lived the natural life of man and died naturally, but he was sent to die for our sins. He died on the cross.


Apr 15, 2012 -- 6:49PM, mrjordan wrote:


More importantly if Adam and Eve, who had not sinned until they ate from the tree and sinned against God, would they still be alive today?




There is a presumption that had  they not sinned they would have been allowed to eat of the tree of life, and therefore not die:


"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Gen 3:22


If the presumption is correct, they would have lived forever.


Never argue with stupid people. They will drag
you down to their level and then beat you with
experience ~ Mark Twain

If you are neutral on situations of injustice
you have chosen the side of the oppressor ~
Desmond Tutu
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 7:31PM #77
57
Posts: 24,029

Apr 15, 2012 -- 7:21PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Apr 15, 2012 -- 7:03PM, 57 wrote:


Bumped for the JW folk. You guys seemed to skip right over these versus as if they would go away.


Apr 15, 2012 -- 5:38PM, 57 wrote:


Galations 2:16


nevertheless knowing that  a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by  faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since  by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.


That's 1. 


Here's another...


Titus 3:5


He saved us,  not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but  according to His mercy, by the  washing of regeneration and  renewing by the Holy Spirit,


...and yet another,


2nd Timoth 1:9


who has  saved us and   called us with a holy  calling,  not according to our works, but according to His own  purpose and grace which was granted us in   Christ Jesus from   all eternity, 


How many versus do you need?  Here's another:


Eph 2:8


For by grace you have been saved  through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is  the gift of God;


Do you need another? OK, here's another;


From Romans...


 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather  according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one who   works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but  believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:



And yet another for Phil 3:9


and may be found in Him, not having  a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,



How many versus do you need to see that works don't grant you salvation? 









None of us believes works grant you salvation.


And I've typed that several times.

We believe faith is necessary, right works are necessary, faith and works are interdependent, and obedience is required.


How can you even begin to say what you said then present "right works are necessary" if works don't "grant' you salvation?


You've skipped this question twice.


Can one be a friend of Christ, and not obey his commandments?


Absolutly.  Do you consider yourself to be a friend? Do you obey EVERY commandment?





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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 7:38PM #78
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Okay, let's try this one more time for clarity.  I didn't say 'perfectly.'  But I am presently obeying Christ's commandments. 



Can one be a friend of Christ, and not obey his commandments?



Absolutly.  Do you consider yourself to be a friend? Do you obey EVERY commandment?---57




If I take your answer at face value, you answered that you can 'absolutely' be a friend of Christ and not obey his commandments.   Before I respond to that answer, I want to be entirely sure you understand the question, and your answer, and that there is no misunderstanding.

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 7:39PM #79
mrjordan
Posts: 2,266

Apr 15, 2012 -- 7:22PM, Oeste wrote:



There is a presumption that had  they not sinned they would have been allowed to eat of the tree of life, and therefore not die:


"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Gen 3:22


If the presumption is correct, they would have lived forever.





When did Jehovah's purpose for man change from living on earth forever to living in heaven?


Scriptures would be nice.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 7:46PM #80
57
Posts: 24,029

Apr 15, 2012 -- 7:38PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Okay, let's try this one more time for clarity.  I didn't say 'perfectly.'  But I am presently obeying Christ's commandments. 



Can one be a friend of Christ, and not obey his commandments?



Absolutly.  Do you consider yourself to be a friend? Do you obey EVERY commandment?---57




If I take your answer at face value, you answered that you can 'absolutely' be a friend of Christ and not obey his commandments.   Before I respond to that answer, I want to be entirely sure you understand the question, and your answer, and that there is no misunderstanding.




Jesus Christ is my Lord, God and Savior.  That being said, I still disobey and sin.  I wish I didn't...but I still sin. 

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