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2 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 11:42AM #61
Kartari
Posts: 2,151

dio,


The Kalama Sutta teaches us something more involved than a one-sentence summary can accurately convey.  For starters, it teaches how to best discern the wisdom in any teachings, not just the Buddha's.  But more critically, trying out the teachings and discerning what seems best to us and discarding the rest, as you stated, is not the full teaching.  It specifically instructs us to check the truth of any teachings in question not merely by what seems good to us, but by the actual results they produce with regards to whether they lead to harm and suffering or not.  It further qualifies us to double-check ourselves and our biases with wise mentors.  In leaving out these latter aspects of the sutta, it tends to give the impression that the Buddha simply taught people to do as they prefer, or what simply seems best, which he did not... he instead outlined a more specific means for discerning what works from what doesn't than that.


"don't go... by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, ...When [1] you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are [2] criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, [3] lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them.


When [1] you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities [2] are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, [3] lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them."



Hope that helps.  I think that's what the others were getting at.

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2 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 12:43PM #62
dio
Posts: 4,306

can wise elders agree that suffering deminished is proof enough?

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2 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 6:06PM #63
Bhakta_glenn
Posts: 772

May 9, 2012 -- 12:43PM, dio wrote:


can wise elders agree that suffering deminished is proof enough?




Dio,


First of all, let me point out that I am ignorant and not wise.


Theravada Buddhism


In reading your posts, I think that you may have one or two misunderstandings about Buddhism.


Buddhism is a Religion of Practices.


Right Understanding of anything associated with the Eightfold Noble Path, is a Threefold Process.


The Theravadin Buddhist Wisdom may be generally included in the term Dhamma.



www.dhamma.org/en/goenka.shtml

Mr. S. N. Goenka

Background

The Buddha never taught a sectarian religion; he taught Dhamma - the way to liberation - which is universal.



The Theravada is set in stone. What this means is that the Dhamma is entirely the Word of the Buddha. It has been Guarded and Dispensed by the Ariya [Enlightened] Sangha for 2500 years.


But, even though it is set in stone, one is invited to come and see for oneself if the Dhamma is acceptable to them. One is not required to blindly accept it. But, it is what it is, immutable.


Neither academic nor scholar anywhere in the world can add anything to the Theravada. Neither academic nor scholar anywhere in the world can subtract anything from the Dhamma.


No other Religion or School of Buddhism can influence it. Whatever is taught elsewhere is not the Theravada. Whatever is taught in the Theravada may not be found elsewhere.


To acquire the Dhamma, one has to request it from a qualified source. One does not merely read about it online, or in books.


If one undertakes an Academic Study of the Dhamma, then one will acquire a lot of worldly knowledge about the Dhamma, but one may not penetrate that Wisdom.


This is true:


"You can experience Nibbana whilst peeling a banana."


There is nothing academic or complex about this.


But, online, one has to try and justify things with words. Meditation is far simpler.


According to the Dhamma, there are Three Characteristics of Existence:


1  Anicca: Impermanence


2  Anatta: Not-Self [Neither Mind-nor-Body-nor-Soul]


3  Dukkha: [Mental and Physical Pain].


In Buddhist Mental Culture, there are two kinds of Mental Development:


1   Tranquillity Meditation


2   Insight Meditation


Tranquillity and Insight are supramundane, not contaminated by Ego. Thus, Tranquillity is just Tranquillity. Insight is just Insight. Neither Tranquillity nor Insight is mine or yours.


When the Mind is agitated, Ignorance is dominant. When the Mind is quiescent, Awareness of Mindfulness is Dominant. A yogi develops Tranquillity to rest the mind because that sublime rest cannot be realised when sleeping because the mind is still agitated.


When the Mind is Quiescent, having rested, then and only then, may Vipassana [Insight] be experienced. When the Mind is Tranquil, it may be focussed upon a single object. For this reason, Tranquillity is also referred to as Concentration.


This Vipassana is called Penetration.


Penetration is the Realisation of the Truth of Dhamma:


1    If one reads a Sutta, then one acquires Theoretical Knowledge of Dhamma.


      In this way, one acquires the Wording of the Dhamma, which may be known in two ways:


      1.1  One may chant the Sutta in order to memorise it.


      1.2 One may analyse the Sutta in order to acquire its meaning.


But, this acquisition is only words, aka The Theory of Dhamma.


2  If one practices Meditation, one may use Walking Meditation for the Development of Tranquillity, aka Concentration; and one may use Sitting Meditation for the Development of Insight.


But, this acquisition is only Mental Culture, aka The Practice of Dhamma


3   Having acquired the Theory and the Practice of Dhamma, one kills the effort to acquire Dhamma, and just does nothing. In this moment, one may renounce all that is Holy, the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha.


Taking the metaphor of the Buddhist Vehicle being a car, one stops the car, and then gets out and takes a walk, or just sits and does nothing. One could even drink a cup of tea during this moment.


This is very important because it involves renunciation of everything: wife, children, job, home, everything. And one must do it with confidence, just to let go of everything.


Whatever arises in the Mind as Insight, will be stainless and selfless. This is the Penetration of Dhamma.


There are three ways one may understand:


1 By Awareness of Impermanence.


2 By Awareness of Not-Self.


3 By Awareness of Dukkha.


Thus have I heard:


Three Months after the Buddha died, a Buddhist Council was held. The Buddha's Cousin was needed for the Dhamma. Only Arahants were allowed to attend this Council. Ananda was not an Arahant. Understanding the importance of his attendance at the Council, Ananda tried very hard to realise Arahantship. He ran out of time and considered that he had failed. He just let go at that point. Before his head touched his pillow for him to sleep, Ananda realised the Dhamma, became a liberated Arahant. Ananda just let go of his desire and attachment to become an Arahant in time for the Council.


Understanding the Moment when one just lets go, is the key.


To return:


"You can experience Nibbana by peeling a banana".


What is happening?


Pick one up, just peel it.


 


 


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2 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 11:40PM #64
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

May 8, 2012 -- 5:46PM, dio wrote:


May 7, 2012 -- 2:27PM, Bob0 wrote:


Your opinion and the teaching of the Sutta differ greatly. The Sutta is Buddhism. Your statemmmment is DIOism.




Bob, what is the teaching of the sutta, some kind of secret esoteric knowledge? What is your opinion of this sutta?


really I'm starting to get  bored with you.



 




Strange, as I find you so utterly original and fascinating!  This sutra is of no importance to my practice.   I have no interest in it, nor have I ever read it.  That's the difference between us:  When I am ignorant of the subject, I have NO opinion, nor do I express knowledge of such a thing-I blatantly tell you I know NOTHING of it.  You on the other hand ignore those who know much and forget how to close your mouth, even long enough to breathe....


Also your blathering about "secret and esoteric" further indicates how little you listen... to ANY of us.  You might have me confused with another sect-but the fact that you don't know who here IS "secret and esoteric" and who is not... well, it only reaffirms what I've always said about you!

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2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 10:20AM #65
dio
Posts: 4,306

Bhakta, thank you for taking the time to explain. At this time I am trying to understand the four noble truths. So far I understand suffering and the cause of suffering, I am looking forward to the end of suffering.


 

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2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 10:22AM #66
dio
Posts: 4,306

Lunatic, then we have nothing to say to each other. go in peace

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2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 12:12PM #67
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

May 10, 2012 -- 10:22AM, dio wrote:


Lunatic, then we have nothing to say to each other. go in peace




As long as we agree that you have nothing to say to me of relevance due to you your poor listening skills.  That's the nature of the problem, always has been.  It's the main problem you have with others here as well.

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2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 12:13PM #68
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

May 10, 2012 -- 10:20AM, dio wrote:


Bhakta, thank you for taking the time to explain. At this time I am trying to understand the four noble truths. So far I understand suffering and the cause of suffering, I am looking forward to the end of suffering.


 




What is the cause of suffering Dio?  Do tell.

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2 years ago  ::  May 11, 2012 - 9:40AM #69
dio
Posts: 4,306

there are many, clinging to wrong thinking is one.

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2 years ago  ::  May 12, 2012 - 6:08PM #70
chevy956
Posts: 1,910

May 9, 2012 -- 9:32AM, dio wrote:

can none of you put into your own words what you understand the sutta to be teaching ?


The reason a link was being given to you is that you could read it and judge for yourself what is useful to YOU from that sutra. We all have to do our own homework, as opinions vary from person to person regarding interpreting and applying the wisdom of sutras to our own lives.


Chevy

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