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Switch to Forum Live View Abraham,Isaac and God
2 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 10:37PM #11
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

JR


thats only if you assume that God doesn't converse with man

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 11:02PM #12
JimRigas
Posts: 2,950

I don't know whether God converse with man or not.  My statement was that the story to which we are referring is a fairy tale.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 9:07AM #13
koolpoi
Posts: 6,442

Apr 13, 2012 -- 4:38PM, 57 wrote:


Apr 13, 2012 -- 12:28PM, koolpoi wrote:

After God stops Abraham from killing Isaac,no further conversations between the father and son or between Abraham and God are recorded.Why do you think this was?Could it be that the incident which almost resulted in Isaac's death at the hands of his father left some deep emotional scars?Could it be that Abraham saw God differently afterwards?



You have to look at the whole story.  This you failed to do. 


After Abraham was told to stop...he was told "Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."


In verse 13 a ram is provided.  You need to work that into story. 


Hebrews 11 tells us:


17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”  19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.


Perhaps the whole story can answer your questions. 




Quite a period of time passed between the original writing of the Abraham story and Hebrews.Why wait so long to clarify the story?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 11:13AM #14
Seefan
Posts: 3,926

Apr 13, 2012 -- 11:02PM, JimRigas wrote:

I don't know whether God converse with man or not. My statement was that the story to which we are referring is a fairy tale.



Depends upon what you believe the bible to be. IMO, I don't believe it has any fairy tales per se but it does use analogies designed to demonstrate spiritual truths.  Maybe this is what you refer to as fairytales?  I believe God communicates with His Prophets/Manifestation through visions and dreams and in a different and much more clear cut manner from what the ordinary person would experience which is through applying the revelation presented through His Messengers in their daily lives.


So if one is to believe in the essence of the bible, God did appear to Abraham and gave him specific instructions which, according to the story, whenever God gave instruction and promises they always came true for him.  When, at age 75 yrs, God told him he would have a son, it seemed impossible because of advanced age coupled with Sarah seemingly being sterile. He was also told to move to the Holy Land and he would establish the Oneness and unity of God, rise the level of spirituality among the people and that his seed would be blessed, all of what seemed impossible because it seemed everyone was against him at that time, including his own family members. When promises like these were coming true Abraham’s trust in God must have become complete.  And all he had to do is remain faithful.  That faithfulness and trust in God was tested to the ultimate – give up all for God ...


I believe this kind of trust was very possible when you realize Abraham was a Manifestation of God and had a more intimate knowledge and understanding of his ways!   While it could be an analogy to explain the necessary spiritual relationship we should have with God, it is also ‘possibly’ an actual event.   But whatever, the reality is that the foundation Abraham established was a direct consequence of his total trust in God and was the cornerstone used by Moses in establishing Judaism ...


 

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 12:57PM #15
Blü
Posts: 24,871

57


Now I know that you fear God


I agree.  It was Yahweh's act of terrorism.


Protection rackets work on the same principle.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 4:33PM #16
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,744

I don't believe God converses with man. If a voice came into my head saying it was God and told me to kill someone I'd ignore it. If such thoughts persisted, I would definately seek psychiatric help.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 6:20PM #17
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Apr 13, 2012 -- 4:48PM, Adelphe wrote:

Apr 13, 2012 -- 12:28PM, koolpoi wrote:

After God stops Abraham from killing Isaac,no further conversations between the father and son or between Abraham and God are recorded.Why do you think this was?Could it be that the incident which almost resulted in Isaac's death at the hands of his father left some deep emotional scars?Could it be that Abraham saw God differently afterwards?


Abraham and God continued their relationship.  Of course!  As 57 points out Abraham is hailed as the hero of faith not to mention he is the only one in the OT to be called a friend of God.  In Genesis 24 (2 "chapters" post-Isaac/Mt. Moriah) we read:


"The Lord, the God of heaven, who took me from my father's house and from the land of my kindred, and who spoke to me and swore to me, ‘To your offspring I will give this land,’ he will send his angel before you, and you shall take a wife for my son from there."


Which is exactly what happened.


Why don't you let everybody know the ... er ... "evolution" of your spin on Genesis 22?


First, you even denied that the Lord ever spoke to Abraham, fishing your argument, on "ethical grounds" even from your much abhorred Immanuel Kant (shesh!)


Then you thought you had found a scapeway in the ... er ... sophisticated "interpretation" of the key Hebrew word found at Gen 22:2 ... 


עָלָה (`alah - H5927) verb: c) (Hiphil) 8) to cause to ascend, offer


עֹלָה (`olah - H5930) feminine noun: 1) whole burnt offering (285 verses) 2) ascent, stairway, steps (< 4 verses)


... given by Howiedds on another thread.


Why don't you, hey? EmbarassedCool


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 3:03AM #18
Adelphe
Posts: 28,707

Apr 14, 2012 -- 6:20PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Why don't you let everybody know the ... er ... "evolution" of your spin on Genesis 22?



First, anyone who actually bothered to follow several threads on the topic on which I posted and actually cared about my position would know of my, er, "spin."  LOL!


Second, why bother when you can always be relied upon to point it out misinterpret and exaggerate it?



First, you even denied that the Lord ever spoke to Abraham,



No, I never "denied that the Lord ever spoke to Abraham."


fishing your argument, on "ethical grounds" even from your much abhorred Immanuel Kant (shesh!)



The one and only time, btw, you reject the reasoning of your much-beloved Krusty Kant.



Then you thought you had found a scapeway in the ... er ... sophisticated "interpretation" of the key Hebrew word found at Gen 22:2 ... 


עָלָה (`alah - H5927) verb: c) (Hiphil) 8) to cause to ascend, offer


עֹלָה (`olah - H5930) feminine noun: 1) whole burnt offering (285 verses) 2) ascent, stairway, steps (< 4 verses)


... given by Howiedds on another thread.



No "scapeway"--simple confirmation of what I already knew.  The God I know and love wouldn't command the "whole burn offering" of a child--not as a "test" or any other...sick joke.



Why don't you, hey?


MdS




Again, see above. 


No need with your consistently persistent (misdirected)...harping.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 8:19AM #19
Seefan
Posts: 3,926

Apr 14, 2012 -- 4:33PM, newsjunkie wrote:

  I don't believe God converses with man. If a voice came into my head saying it was God and told me to kill someone I'd ignore it. If such thoughts persisted, I would definately seek psychiatric help. 



I agree 100% but then you're not a Manifestation of God!  And not to be argumentative but I suspect don't understand what that is - imho ...

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 9:34AM #20
LeahOne
Posts: 16,280

Interesting conversation..... I suggest that the OP may wish to repeat the experiment both on the DJ and DI forums, to see what the rest of the Abrahamic family have to say on the topic....


And then we could all find a Multifaith board and meet for the side-by-side-by-side comparison : ))


 

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