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Switch to Forum Live View Unambiguous assertions of Jesus's divinity
3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 7:02AM #1
Kwinters
Posts: 22,156
Just wondering how many instances Christians can provide where Jesus is described unambiguously as divine in their scriptures.

How many times is this connection explicitly made beyond any reasonable dispute of interpretation or translation or redaction, from which books do these passages come, and when were they written?
Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 8:07AM #2
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

Apr 12, 2012 -- 7:02AM, Kwinters wrote:

Just wondering how many instances Christians can provide where Jesus is described unambiguously as divine in their scriptures.

How many times is this connection explicitly made beyond any reasonable dispute of interpretation or translation or redaction, from which books do these passages come, and when were they written?


OK, learned and devout believers, all together now here we go:


And ah 1 is:


 Oh, wait! The Doctor has added - what is this heathen adverb? What vile purpose is hidden behind such language? Can this be a modern Venus inviting congress with the Devil’s own whore?


Flee! Flee! Lest we be intoxicated with this Satanic brew of reason logic and DISbelief.

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 8:13AM #3
jlb32168
Posts: 13,400

Apr 12, 2012 -- 7:02AM, Kwinters wrote:

Just wondering how many instances Christians can provide where Jesus is described unambiguously as divine in their scriptures.

How many times is this connection explicitly made beyond any reasonable dispute of interpretation or translation or redaction, from which books do these passages come, and when were they written?


John 1:1-14


Titus 2:13


Of course, we can solve this "problem" of the explicitness by arbitrarily dismissing the verses for some far-flung reason that suddenly bestows ambiguity.

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 8:46AM #4
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Col. 1: 14-20


Phil. 2: 6


Rev. 1:8


Re 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 9:37AM #5
Kwinters
Posts: 22,156

Apr 12, 2012 -- 8:46AM, davelaw40 wrote:


Col. 1: 14-20


Phil. 2: 6


Rev. 1:8


Re 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.





Col. 1: 14-20 and Phil. 2: 6. I said unambiguously, Dave.


My version of Rev 1:8 includes the specification 'God': 1:8I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.


It does not equate Jesus with God.



Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 9:37AM #6
Ed.W
Posts: 9,442

John 3:16 ... you asked for "divinity", not "equating Jesus with God"


no moving the goal posts.....

‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 9:43AM #7
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Apr 12, 2012 -- 9:37AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 8:46AM, davelaw40 wrote:


Col. 1: 14-20


Phil. 2: 6


Rev. 1:8


Re 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.





Col. 1: 14-20 and Phil. 2: 6. I said unambiguously, Dave.


My version of Rev 1:8 includes the specification 'God': 1:8I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.


It does not equate Jesus with God.






your version added a Theos


the TR reads that Jesus (in the previous verse) says: I am the Lord... the Almighty



agree or disagree: my version is unambiguous

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 9:53AM #8
Kwinters
Posts: 22,156

Apr 12, 2012 -- 9:43AM, davelaw40 wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 9:37AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 8:46AM, davelaw40 wrote:


Col. 1: 14-20


Phil. 2: 6


Rev. 1:8


Re 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.





Col. 1: 14-20 and Phil. 2: 6. I said unambiguously, Dave.


My version of Rev 1:8 includes the specification 'God': 1:8I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.


It does not equate Jesus with God.






your version added a Theos


the TR reads that Jesus (in the previous verse) says: I am the Lord... the Almighty



agree or disagree: my version is unambiguous




'...Despite the distinctiveness with which God and Jesus are regarded in the New Testament some Christians are under the misconception that God and Jesus form two-thirds of a triune deity. Partial responsibility for this error is due to the New Testament writers, who use a number of designations for Jesus, which are the same as those given to God in the Jewish Bible and in the New Testament. The resulting confusion as to whether certain New Testament passages refer to God or to Jesus helped to produce the belief in a triune god.


That Jesus, who is considered by the New Testament writers to be the link between God and creation, is called by some of the same designations that are applied to God is understandable. After all, the New Testament writers believed that God had conferred a tremendous amount of power upon this angelic being, so why not, as well, some of His names, which express certain facets of His being?


But it is nevertheless clear that although the God of the New Testament interacts with the world He created solely through His "firstborn" (Colossians 1:15-17), the latter is still subservient to God. Because of the exalted yet subservient position in which they envision Jesus, the New Testament writers do not believe it compromises God's status to apply some of His names to Jesus (cf. Ephesians 1:21, Philippians 2:9, Hebrews 1:4). The use of common names is not intended to indicate that Jesus is of one substance with God.

Perhaps, if "the Alpha and the Omega" in Revelations 22:13 is actually a reference to Jesus it stems from the New Testament belief that the pre-incarnate Jesus was the first thing created by God. What is significant is not so much the use of this name as the fact that whenever the relationship between God and Jesus is treated, the New Testament writers always describe God as superior to Jesus.'


(jewsforjudaism.org)



Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 10:01AM #9
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Apr 12, 2012 -- 9:53AM, Kwinters wrote:

 



Perhaps, if "the Alpha and the Omega" in Revelations 22:13 is actually a reference to Jesus it stems from the New Testament belief that the pre-incarnate Jesus was the first thing created by God. What is significant is not so much the use of this name as the fact that whenever the relationship between God and Jesus is treated, the New Testament writers always describe God as superior to Jesus.'


(jewsforjudaism.org)






this totally ignores that Jesus is the one who willingly submits Himself to the Father as superior


God's equal who humbles Himself

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 11:15AM #10
Ed.W
Posts: 9,442

But it is nevertheless clear that although the God of the New Testament interacts with the world He created solely through His "firstborn" (Colossians 1:15-17),



I marvel at the way people read something then immediately editorialize it and/or rewrite it.


Where in the scripture referenced above does it say "his" firstborn?  It doesn't--  It is NOT "clear" what the author of the editorial above alleges.  The Son/Word was not "created" by the Father.  Jesus and the Father are one.  Therefore there is no superiority issue.


Here's the actual verse: (15.17)


"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.  For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth.  He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."


That plainly says Jesus is God, creator of all things. 



BTW, the JW's see the damning impact of the passage for those who wish to say Jesus is not God, notice the way they bastardized the verse:


15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,







Another short thread.




Colossians 1:15-20  plainly (if words are not added and stricken anyway) makes Jesus out to be "equal to God" (if I must speak in terms of the proletariat).


‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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