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Switch to Forum Live View Unambiguous assertions of Jesus's divinity
2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 1:16AM #51
Blü
Posts: 24,021

Adelphe


If John 1 could be imagined as asserting an actual identity between Yahweh and Jesus, and if all those many outright denials attributed directly to Jesus of any identity between Yahweh and Jesus (including many by the author of John 1) could be made to disappear, that still wouldn't set up the Trinity.


Somehow or other the NT needs to be tortured into stating that the Ghost is the equal of Yahweh and of Jesus when plainly he's just the messenger.  Fire up the braziers, new chains for the rack, whet all the blades, because this is going to take some doing.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 1:17AM #52
Adelphe
Posts: 28,699

Apr 13, 2012 -- 8:50PM, Jenandew7 wrote:


Apr 13, 2012 -- 2:19AM, Adelphe wrote:


Again, from the OP:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 7:02AM, Kwinters wrote:

Just wondering how many instances Christians can provide where Jesus is described unambiguously as divine in their scriptures.





Oh, I guess John 14:1 is not in the Christian scriptures.  Right?!







How many times are you going to demonstrate you can't follow simple directions?  Read the OP and posts 15, 17, and 28 again.


No one (perhaps) objects to a discussion on "John 14:1" (in itself a misreading of jlb's reference in post 3), but that isn't what was asked.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 1:26AM #53
Adelphe
Posts: 28,699

Apr 14, 2012 -- 1:16AM, Blü wrote:


Adelphe


If John 1 could be imagined as asserting an actual identity between Yahweh and Jesus, and if all those many outright denials attributed directly to Jesus of any identity between Yahweh and Jesus (including many by the author of John 1) could be made to disappear, that still wouldn't set up the Trinity.


Somehow or other the NT needs to be tortured into stating that the Ghost is the equal of Yahweh and of Jesus when plainly he's just the messenger.  Fire up the braziers, new chains for the rack, whet all the blades, because this is going to take some doing.




lol


Well, again, dearest--this argument is a mess in more ways than one.  Scripturally and doctrinally-speaking, YHWH is NOT just the Father but the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit so Jesus wouldn't be asserting strict identity with YHWH--either in your (erroneous) case (the Son is NOT identical to the Father and never claimed to be) or in Scripture or Christian doctrine (the Son is one person of YHWH.)

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 5:24AM #54
Kwinters
Posts: 18,311

Apr 13, 2012 -- 4:51AM, davelaw40 wrote:


I still say John's Prologue fits your requirement:



Word was God...Word became flesh





DL,


Thanks for this.  I am travelling at the weekend so I saw this but didn't have time to immediately respond.


OK, you've convinced me.


An unambiguous divine Christology can be dated to 90-100 CE based on the Prologue.


Is this the earliest instances?


Is it the only instance?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 5:43AM #55
Kwinters
Posts: 18,311

Apr 13, 2012 -- 4:44PM, 57 wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 7:02AM, Kwinters wrote:

Just wondering how many instances Christians can provide where Jesus is described unambiguously as divine in their scriptures.

How many times is this connection explicitly made beyond any reasonable dispute of interpretation or translation or redaction, from which books do these passages come, and when were they written?



Perhaps you would like to present a post telling us where Jesus explicitly said He wasn't God. 




I like this one from Acts:


Acts 2:22-24


Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.



Here are just a few examples from Mark.


As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, ‘Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.’" Mark 10:17-18


At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.” Mark 1:9-11


"After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, ‘Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters - one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.’ (He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.) Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: ‘This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!’" Mark 9:2-7


Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, "Your sins are forgiven"; or to say, "Arise take up your pallet and walk"? But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins’ - He said to the paralytic - ‘I say to you, rise, take up your pallet and go home.’ And he rose and immediately took up the pallet and went out in the sight of all; so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, ‘We have never seen anything like this.’" Mark 5-12


'But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”  “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 


More:


"My Father is greater than I." ‐ (John 14:28)


But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)


''Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”(John 20:17)


The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (Colossians 1:15)



Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 5:46AM #56
Kwinters
Posts: 18,311

Apr 13, 2012 -- 3:39PM, MMarcoe wrote:


Apr 13, 2012 -- 10:55AM, Ed.W wrote:


>>>[k] NO, he did NOT!  [say that he and the Father together were God]


yes, he did.  I and the Father are one.  That's clear.  That's emphatic.   Are you saying the Father is not God anymore?  If the Father is God, and Jesus and the Father "are one", then Jesus is God.  It is you who then starts spinning.




No, no, no ... and no.


To be "one" is not to be the same. Being one is a close relationship in which two or more entities function harmoniously as a single unit, but they do retain their distinctiveness.


For example, if you are married, then you and your spouse are one. But you are not the same.





As I noted, the son of the President is not the President.  That being said, he is afforded a lot of leeway and different treatment because of his close relationship to the actual source of power.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 7:08AM #57
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Apr 14, 2012 -- 1:02AM, Adelphe wrote:

Apr 13, 2012 -- 6:12PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

LOL! still trying to put another tag on me aren't you, poor lady?


The only one that fits is Strict Monotheism: Strict, as opposed to Pantheism, Gnosticism, Modalism, Adoptionism, Arianism, Semi-Arianism, etc. etc. ...


... and, of course, "trinitarianism" ...


No, in fact it doesn't fit--at all.  It's simply irrelevant what you like to call yourself.  Big Daddy knights Junior conferring upon him deity for an, er, "job well-done."


In spite of your colorfully derogatory way of putting it, that is precisely what happened:


6 ... who though he existed in the form of God
did not regard equality with God
as something to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself
by taking on the form of a slave,
by looking like other men,
and by sharing in human nature.
8 He humbled himself,
by becoming obedient to the point of death
– even death on a cross!
9 As a result God exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow
– in heaven and on earth and under the earth –
11 and every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord
to the glory of God the Father.
(Phil 2:6-11 - emphasis and underlining by MdS)


In more "sophisticated" terms, the only thing that's "Strict" is your (pantheistic) Adoptionistic Arian Polytheism.


This desperate need for appending (now even multiple ...) tags on me only shows how utterly clueless the poor lady is ...


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 7:20AM #58
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Apr 14, 2012 -- 1:16AM, Blü wrote:


Adelphe


If John 1 could be imagined as asserting an actual identity between Yahweh and Jesus, and if all those many outright denials attributed directly to Jesus of any identity between Yahweh and Jesus (including many by the author of John 1) could be made to disappear, that still wouldn't set up the Trinity.


Somehow or other the NT needs to be tortured into stating that the Ghost is the equal of Yahweh and of Jesus when plainly he's just the messenger.  Fire up the braziers, new chains for the rack, whet all the blades, because this is going to take some doing.




You should also review OT theophanies-where God sends a "messenger" and the immediate response is worship acknowledging the actual presence of God. Those include but are not limited to Jacob's wrestling match and the burning bush.

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 9:15AM #59
Ed.W
Posts: 9,407

Apr 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Apr 14, 2012 -- 1:02AM, Adelphe wrote:

Apr 13, 2012 -- 6:12PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

LOL! still trying to put another tag on me aren't you, poor lady?


The only one that fits is Strict Monotheism: Strict, as opposed to Pantheism, Gnosticism, Modalism, Adoptionism, Arianism, Semi-Arianism, etc. etc. ...


... and, of course, "trinitarianism" ...


No, in fact it doesn't fit--at all.  It's simply irrelevant what you like to call yourself.  Big Daddy knights Junior conferring upon him deity for an, er, "job well-done."


In spite of your colorfully derogatory way of putting it, that is precisely what happened:


6 ... who though he existed in the form of God
did not regard equality with God
as something to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself
by taking on the form of a slave,
by looking like other men,
and by sharing in human nature.
8 He humbled himself,
by becoming obedient to the point of death
– even death on a cross!
9 As a result God exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow
– in heaven and on earth and under the earth –
11 and every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord
to the glory of God the Father.
(Phil 2:6-11 - emphasis and underlining by MdS)


In more "sophisticated" terms, the only thing that's "Strict" is your (pantheistic) Adoptionistic Arian Polytheism.


This desperate need for appending (now even multiple ...) tags on me only shows how utterly clueless the poor lady is ...


MdS




No, that is not what happened even generally, let alone "precisely".


I've already dealt with your favorite proof text, Mario.  I'm willing to bet you didn't even give those posts any thought at all, however.  I know you wouldn't have changed your opinion on their meaning; but I'm only betting that you didn't give them any thought at all.  Your arrogance is what will lead to your destruction.


Once again, what happened "as a result of" Jesus going to the cross was NOT his becoming deity or becoming pleasing to God.  What happened "because of this" was that men/people the world over revered him as Lord and worshipped him as Lord/God.


Perhaps your intentional misinterpretation of this passage serves a dual purpose for you, Mario.


Not only is it your unique theology in a nutshell (Big Daddy knights Junior after he dies for him --scripture has the Father pleased with Junior long before his death, at his baptism and at the transfiguration.)


But this odd exegesis of yours distracts from what your real problem with the verse is.  I'll quote myself rather that digging up the verse:


What happened "because of this" was that men/women the world over revered him as Lord and worshipped him as Lord/God.



That's the part you don't like about it:  That "because of this", at the name of Jesus, every knee should bend, that "because of this" everyone shall call him Lord.  That's what the text says. 


Nowhere does it say because of this, his relationship with the Father changed one iota.






Have you got anything I can sink my teeth into?
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 9:57AM #60
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Apr 14, 2012 -- 5:46AM, Kwinters wrote:

As I noted, the son of the President is not the President.  That being said, he is afforded a lot of leeway and different treatment because of his close relationship to the actual source of power.


Poor logic ...


... how about "the son of a man is a man"?


How about "the son of a European man and of an Asian girl is Euro-Asian"?


How about "the son of God and of a human girl is God-man"?


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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