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Switch to Forum Live View What theists can learn from atheists
3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 10:18AM #51
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 16, 2012 -- 9:12PM, teilhard wrote:


"Intuition" is VERY important; "Pattern Recognition," as in, "Beauty" and "Proportion;" ..."Memory," as in Awareness of "Time" and "History;" ... and, yes, "Feeling" ...


There is a LOT of Human Awareness that ISN'T strictly about  analytical "Logic" or systematic "Reason" ...


Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:13PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:07PM, teilhard wrote:


Indeed, "Reason" and "Logic" are SOME -- but NOT the ONLY -- Creator-given Tools for investigating and understanding Life, The Universe and Everything ...


Ironically, it ISN'T entirely "Logical" or "Reason-able" to rely SOLELY on "Logic" and "Reason" ...


Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:51PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 11, 2012 -- 6:40PM, steven_guy wrote:

Reason and logic for starters.




Because I understand that reason and intelligence are the primary capacities that God granted to humans (that this is indeed what "made in God's image" means), I most certainly don't see atheism offering any help in that regard. 


Got anything else you might wish to offer?








Well, the "reason and logic" thing is largely the fault of theists, IMO. People love to talk about God in very touchy-feely terms, and go off on flowery side-trips about the wonderful, warm feelings they get from their faith. That's all well and good. But God is a God of reason and intelligence, I think.


Without reason and intelligence, what do you have? Nothing. All the touchy-feeling things can't exist -- at least not in any real, meaningful manner -- if you do not first have reason. 


Reason, knowledge, discovery -- that's what it's all about. 








I'm not arguing that we don't have qualities outside of, or transcending, what we call reason and logic. Or, that we should live only by reason and logic. We're not Vulcans, for heaven's sake. 


What I'm saying is, without reason and intelligence first firmly in place, those other qualities can often just lead down blind alleys. They can be mind-numbing. They can lead to pointless self-absorbtion, or, simply blindly following authority figures or tradition, rather than thinking for oneself. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 11:41AM #52
mountain_man
Posts: 40,185

Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:13AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Thank you, also, for sharing you opinon.


Not opinion, just the facts.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 11:44AM #53
mountain_man
Posts: 40,185

Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:18AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

...What I'm saying is, without reason and intelligence first firmly in place, those other qualities can often just lead down blind alleys.


God beliefs is one of those blind alleys.


They can be mind-numbing. They can lead to pointless self-absorbtion, or, simply blindly following authority figures or tradition, rather than thinking for oneself.


Religious extremists, such as fundamentalist christians, are proof of that.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 12:17PM #54
teilhard
Posts: 51,809

Yes ... A "stunted" Human Being, who embraces only SOME of her/his Humanity in all its Rich Depth and Variety, will encounter more Frustration than Fulfillment ...


Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:18AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 9:12PM, teilhard wrote:


"Intuition" is VERY important; "Pattern Recognition," as in, "Beauty" and "Proportion;" ..."Memory," as in Awareness of "Time" and "History;" ... and, yes, "Feeling" ...


There is a LOT of Human Awareness that ISN'T strictly about  analytical "Logic" or systematic "Reason" ...


Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:13PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:07PM, teilhard wrote:


Indeed, "Reason" and "Logic" are SOME -- but NOT the ONLY -- Creator-given Tools for investigating and understanding Life, The Universe and Everything ...


Ironically, it ISN'T entirely "Logical" or "Reason-able" to rely SOLELY on "Logic" and "Reason" ...


Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:51PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 11, 2012 -- 6:40PM, steven_guy wrote:

Reason and logic for starters.




Because I understand that reason and intelligence are the primary capacities that God granted to humans (that this is indeed what "made in God's image" means), I most certainly don't see atheism offering any help in that regard. 


Got anything else you might wish to offer?








Well, the "reason and logic" thing is largely the fault of theists, IMO. People love to talk about God in very touchy-feely terms, and go off on flowery side-trips about the wonderful, warm feelings they get from their faith. That's all well and good. But God is a God of reason and intelligence, I think.


Without reason and intelligence, what do you have? Nothing. All the touchy-feeling things can't exist -- at least not in any real, meaningful manner -- if you do not first have reason. 


Reason, knowledge, discovery -- that's what it's all about. 








I'm not arguing that we don't have qualities outside of, or transcending, what we call reason and logic. Or, that we should live only by reason and logic. We're not Vulcans, for heaven's sake. 


What I'm saying is, without reason and intelligence first firmly in place, those other qualities can often just lead down blind alleys. They can be mind-numbing. They can lead to pointless self-absorbtion, or, simply blindly following authority figures or tradition, rather than thinking for oneself. 





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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 1:06PM #55
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:13AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:50PM, Ken wrote:


Pity. A sense of historical plausibility is something else that theists can learn from atheists.




You're making a range of assumptions there. 


For starters, I understand religion to be relative to time and place, and progressive. Therefore, "X" predates "Y" doesn't make "Y" invalid -- any more than what one learned in second grade makes what one discovers in college invalid. 



But what you learned in college isn't what you learned in second grade. The creation story in Genesis is the crude theology of a barbarous and superstitious people. Modern theologians should simply discard it instead of pretending that it embodies their own more sophisticated ideas.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 5:00PM #56
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 17, 2012 -- 11:41AM, mountain_man wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:13AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Thank you, also, for sharing you opinon.


Not opinion, just the facts.




In your opinion, they are facts. I see no compelling reason to agree. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 5:01PM #57
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 17, 2012 -- 12:17PM, teilhard wrote:


Yes ... A "stunted" Human Being, who embraces only SOME of her/his Humanity in all its Rich Depth and Variety, will encounter more Frustration than Fulfillment ...


Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:18AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 9:12PM, teilhard wrote:


"Intuition" is VERY important; "Pattern Recognition," as in, "Beauty" and "Proportion;" ..."Memory," as in Awareness of "Time" and "History;" ... and, yes, "Feeling" ...


There is a LOT of Human Awareness that ISN'T strictly about  analytical "Logic" or systematic "Reason" ...


Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:13PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:07PM, teilhard wrote:


Indeed, "Reason" and "Logic" are SOME -- but NOT the ONLY -- Creator-given Tools for investigating and understanding Life, The Universe and Everything ...


Ironically, it ISN'T entirely "Logical" or "Reason-able" to rely SOLELY on "Logic" and "Reason" ...


Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:51PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 11, 2012 -- 6:40PM, steven_guy wrote:

Reason and logic for starters.




Because I understand that reason and intelligence are the primary capacities that God granted to humans (that this is indeed what "made in God's image" means), I most certainly don't see atheism offering any help in that regard. 


Got anything else you might wish to offer?








Well, the "reason and logic" thing is largely the fault of theists, IMO. People love to talk about God in very touchy-feely terms, and go off on flowery side-trips about the wonderful, warm feelings they get from their faith. That's all well and good. But God is a God of reason and intelligence, I think.


Without reason and intelligence, what do you have? Nothing. All the touchy-feeling things can't exist -- at least not in any real, meaningful manner -- if you do not first have reason. 


Reason, knowledge, discovery -- that's what it's all about. 








I'm not arguing that we don't have qualities outside of, or transcending, what we call reason and logic. Or, that we should live only by reason and logic. We're not Vulcans, for heaven's sake. 


What I'm saying is, without reason and intelligence first firmly in place, those other qualities can often just lead down blind alleys. They can be mind-numbing. They can lead to pointless self-absorbtion, or, simply blindly following authority figures or tradition, rather than thinking for oneself. 








Well, there's more than one way to approach life. Otherwise, it would be awfully boring. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 5:10PM #58
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 17, 2012 -- 1:06PM, Ken wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:13AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:50PM, Ken wrote:


Pity. A sense of historical plausibility is something else that theists can learn from atheists.




You're making a range of assumptions there. 


For starters, I understand religion to be relative to time and place, and progressive. Therefore, "X" predates "Y" doesn't make "Y" invalid -- any more than what one learned in second grade makes what one discovers in college invalid. 



But what you learned in college isn't what you learned in second grade. The creation story in Genesis is the crude theology of a barbarous and superstitious people. Modern theologians should simply discard it instead of pretending that it embodies their own more sophisticated ideas.




I understand the Genisis story to be allegorical. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 5:38PM #59
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Apr 17, 2012 -- 5:10PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 1:06PM, Ken wrote:

But what you learned in college isn't what you learned in second grade. The creation story in Genesis is the crude theology of a barbarous and superstitious people. Modern theologians should simply discard it instead of pretending that it embodies their own more sophisticated ideas.



I understand the Genisis story to be allegorical. 



Why? It doesn't look much like other allegories in the Hebrew Bible. They're more explicit and often clearly identified as allegories. That something in the Bible isn't literally true doesn't necessarily mean that it's true in some poetic sense. It may simply be wrong. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 6:35PM #60
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 17, 2012 -- 5:38PM, Ken wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 5:10PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 1:06PM, Ken wrote:

But what you learned in college isn't what you learned in second grade. The creation story in Genesis is the crude theology of a barbarous and superstitious people. Modern theologians should simply discard it instead of pretending that it embodies their own more sophisticated ideas.



I understand the Genisis story to be allegorical. 



Why? It doesn't look much like other allegories in the Hebrew Bible. They're more explicit and often clearly identified as allegories. That something in the Bible isn't literally true doesn't necessarily mean that it's true in some poetic sense. It may simply be wrong. 




I think it can have many "meanings." It's not a yes or no question. 


In any case, it's "wrong" (if you want to use that term) in the sense of trying to use it as a literal history of how life on Earth began. And to claim, for example, that this planet is only 6,000 years old, and Noah's flood literally covered the entire globe.

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