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Switch to Forum Live View What theists can learn from atheists
1 year ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 1:50PM #31
mountain_man
mountain_man
Posts: 34,481

Apr 13, 2012 -- 8:16PM, steven_guy wrote:

The last thing I want to do is go to heaven when I die. I want to be honestly and respectably dead and rotting away, like any other corpse. I don't want to spend a trillion trillion years praising Jesus and communing with the likes of Iamachildofhis.


I'm not worried about it. Even those planning on being a sniveling sycophant in Heaven will end up rotting away like the rest of us. If they really believed in that heaven stuff; they'd be killing themselves of at a rate much greater than they are now. Their beliefs are obviously not as sincere as they lead others to believe.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 1:56PM #32
amcolph
amcolph
Posts: 13,685

Apr 14, 2012 -- 10:42AM, IDBC wrote:


 


That reminds me of a story I heard about the Battle of Gettyburg.  Stonewall Jackson saw a chaplin running away from the battle.   He shouted out to the chaplin "Why are you running?"  The chaplin responded "Because I can't fly?"   Jackson shouted back "All this time I have heard you preaching how much you can't wait to get to heaven and now that you have the opportunity you are running away!" 




A good anecdote.  Too bad Jackson died two months before the battle of Gettysburg.

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 4:24PM #33
koala972
koala972
Posts: 810

Apr 11, 2012 -- 6:40PM, steven_guy wrote:

Reason and logic for starters.



given we believe in different fundamental axioms about life than you do, any reasoning we could do wouldn't lead in the same direction as any reasoning you could do.  So you would still lambaste us for being unreasonable because we would refuse to agree that the conclusions you come to from applying reason are the one and only necessary conclusions you CAN come to.  And you are going to call us on that regardless of how well we can jump from one thought to another.  Meanwhile an objective observer might see that you are being just as unreasonable as you say we are in your own way.  But you won't be critical of yourself {which IMO is an essential part of education that you lack} only us.  So given all that why should we even bother to continue to try?
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 4:40PM #34
farragut
farragut
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What are the fundamental axioms that you have in mind?
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 4:44PM #35
JCarlin
JCarlin
Posts: 4,899

Apr 14, 2012 -- 4:24PM, koala972 wrote:

Apr 11, 2012 -- 6:40PM, steven_guy wrote:

Reason and logic for starters.


  So given all that why should we even bother to continue to try?


So that we all might learn.  Asserting dogma won't do it, but showing by reason and logic that dogma leads to reasonable social values could.  Most of the arguments you get here are using reason and logic to show how dogma leads to dysfunctional social values.  It would be refreshing to find a reasonable social value which can be supported by dogma or God belief. 

J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 4:53PM #36
mountain_man
mountain_man
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Apr 14, 2012 -- 4:24PM, koala972 wrote:

given we believe in different fundamental axioms about life than you do, any reasoning we could do wouldn't lead in the same direction as any reasoning you could do.


Axiom: a self-evident truth that requires no proof. That a god exists is a belief, not an axiom. You don't get to pick an emotionally held belief, call it an axiom, and claim it is on the same logical level as real axioms.


So you would still lambaste us for being unreasonable because we would refuse to agree that the conclusions you come to from applying reason are the one and only necessary conclusions you CAN come to.


Why not? Believers do it to us all the time. Didn't you do exactly that by claiming god beliefs are axioms?


And you are going to call us on that regardless of how well we can jump from one thought to another.  Meanwhile an objective observer might see that you are being just as unreasonable as you say we are in your own way.  But you won't be critical of yourself {which IMO is an essential part of education that you lack} only us.  So given all that why should we even bother to continue to try?


Maybe you could learn something by trying and listening to how your logic failed.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 4:55PM #37
JCarlin
JCarlin
Posts: 4,899

Apr 14, 2012 -- 4:40PM, farragut wrote:

What are the fundamental axioms that you have in mind?


It isn't so much the fundamantal axioms that are the issue but how one gets from them to something useful. 

J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 5:15PM #38
Ken
Ken
Posts: 33,860

Apr 14, 2012 -- 4:24PM, koala972 wrote:


Apr 11, 2012 -- 6:40PM, steven_guy wrote:

Reason and logic for starters.



given we believe in different fundamental axioms about life than you do, any reasoning we could do wouldn't lead in the same direction as any reasoning you could do. 


Fundamental axioms are limited to things like the basic rules of logic and the existence of a world external to the self. You can't take religious beliefs as axiomatic. When you do, you are making unwarranted assumptions.

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 5:51PM #39
mytmouse57
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Apr 11, 2012 -- 6:40PM, steven_guy wrote:

Reason and logic for starters.




Because I understand that reason and intelligence are the primary capacities that God granted to humans (that this is indeed what "made in God's image" means), I most certainly don't see atheism offering any help in that regard. 


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1 year ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 6:07PM #40
teilhard
teilhard
Posts: 43,018

Indeed, "Reason" and "Logic" are SOME -- but NOT the ONLY -- Creator-given Tools for investigating and understanding Life, The Universe and Everything ...


Ironically, it ISN'T entirely "Logical" or "Reason-able" to rely SOLELY on "Logic" and "Reason" ...


Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:51PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 11, 2012 -- 6:40PM, steven_guy wrote:

Reason and logic for starters.




Because I understand that reason and intelligence are the primary capacities that God granted to humans (that this is indeed what "made in God's image" means), I most certainly don't see atheism offering any help in that regard. 


Got anything else you might wish to offer?
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