It is a core teaching that 'receiving the Torah' results in 'becoming a Jew' - and we also teach (as a kind of concept) that the souls of ALL Jews, including all converts, were 'present at Sinai'. We also say that we are continually 'receiving Torah' daily, all the time...
What are your concept and saying based on? Is it in the Torah?
(I think you mean 'complements Torah', not compliments - weird English spelling thing. Compliment with an 'i' means saying nice things, complement with an 'e' means it enhances or stands beside and improves, something.)
We can't stop people from putting things 'next to' Torah with the idea that these things complement Torah, but we don't believe they actually do, and we do believe such things are unnecessary.
And as river has said, it is a fond teaching of the non-Jews that Jews are 'supposed to' be mistreated, and then proceed to mistreat the Jews, because they 'deserve it'.
That is not my fond teaching about Jews. You are blaming me for nothing. Blaming the blameless is a very bad habit.
It's called 'blaming the victim' and it's wildly popular - and just as wildly stupid and wrong.
Blaming the blameless is not only a bad habit but also wildly stupid and wrong unless the Torah teaches you so.
I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion. (Chris Matthews)
It is a core teaching that 'receiving the Torah' results in 'becoming a Jew' - and we also teach (as a kind of concept) that the souls of ALL Jews, including all converts, were 'present at Sinai'. We also say that we are continually 'receiving Torah' daily, all the time...
What are your concept and saying based on? Is it in the Torah?
It's in our Oral Torah, and in our traditions. You can find some of these ideas also in our prayerbook and liturgy.
(I think you mean 'complements Torah', not compliments - weird English spelling thing. Compliment with an 'i' means saying nice things, complement with an 'e' means it enhances or stands beside and improves, something.)
(I did mean "compliment".)
Well, thank you then. They are related words after all.
We can't stop people from putting things 'next to' Torah with the idea that these things complement Torah, but we don't believe they actually do, and we do believe such things are unnecessary.
What did the prophets do?
Prophets are spokespersons for God, and they speak to the community to remind them of Torah. Nothing a prophet says can contradict 'Torah'.
And as river has said, it is a fond teaching of the non-Jews that Jews are 'supposed to' be mistreated, and then proceed to mistreat the Jews, because they 'deserve it'.
That is not my fond teaching about Jews. You are blaming me for nothing. Blaming the blameless is a very bad habit.
It's called 'blaming the victim' and it's wildly popular - and just as wildly stupid and wrong.
Blaming the blameless is not only a bad habit but also wildly stupid and wrong unless the Torah teaches you so.
Sorry, ibn - that wasn't directed at you, but just a response to what river had said, - corroborating an unfortunate but common behavior of people everywhere, of attempting to make the victim of prejudice appear to 'deserve' being mistreated or the subject of bigotry. It's endemic to humans, not something connected to ANY religious group, that's for certain! I'm sure you can find examples right around b'net, of similar statements directed at Muslims (in fact, I know for sure you can, because I've seen such things).
It is a core teaching that 'receiving the Torah' results in 'becoming a Jew' - and we also teach (as a kind of concept) that the souls of ALL Jews, including all converts, were 'present at Sinai'. We also say that we are continually 'receiving Torah' daily, all the time...
It's in our Oral Torah, and in our traditions. You can find some of these ideas also in our prayerbook and liturgy.
Thank you for your answer but I am still not sure what exactly "receiving the Torah" did; b'nei Yisrael became Jews or Jewish Nation. Either I can't understand the difference between "becoming a Jew" and "becoming a Nation" or your oral Torah is giving mixed signals.
Further, I would like to understand whether it is just "receiving the Torah" that makes one "become a Jew" and become Jewish Nation without observing the Torah or not observing the Torah will make any difference to one being a Jew or becoming part of the Jewish Nation?
(I think you mean 'complements Torah', not compliments - weird English spelling thing. Compliment with an 'i' means saying nice things, complement with an 'e' means it enhances or stands beside and improves, something.)
Well, thank you then. They are related words after all.
Actually, the Qur'an (Islam) compliments the revealed Torah by speaking highly of it. It does not reject anything in the Torah as false revelation from G-d to Moses. I was hoping that you might question how does the Torah compliment Islam as the Torah was revealed a long time before the Qur'an but I suppose no one is interested in it on this board. And I do appreaciate why that is so.
We can't stop people from putting things 'next to' Torah with the idea that these things complement Torah, but we don't believe they actually do, and we do believe such things are unnecessary.
And as river has said, it is a fond teaching of the non-Jews that Jews are 'supposed to' be mistreated, and then proceed to mistreat the Jews, because they 'deserve it'. It's called 'blaming the victim' and it's wildly popular - and just as wildly stupid and wrong
That is not my fond teaching about Jews. You are blaming me for nothing. Blaming the blameless is a very bad habit. Blaming the blameless is not only a bad habit but also wildly stupid and wrong unless the Torah teaches you so.
Sorry, ibn - that wasn't directed at you, but just a response to what river had said, - corroborating an unfortunate but common behavior of people everywhere, of attempting to make the victim of prejudice appear to 'deserve' being mistreated or the subject of bigotry. It's endemic to humans, not something connected to ANY religious group, that's for certain! I'm sure you can find examples right around b'net, of similar statements directed at Muslims (in fact, I know for sure you can, because I've seen such things).
Thank you for your explanation. I am sure there are Jewish people who are very good people. There are also good Muslims who would not harm any innocent person regardless whether the person is Jewish, Christian or even atheist. We (Muslims and Jewish people) would be wrong to use the same brush for all. This is one of the main causes of conflict, mistrust and prejudice between human beings. Instead of using the possive examples, we are too quick to use the negative examples and disturb peace between us.
Thanks once again for being honest and polite.
I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion. (Chris Matthews)
'receiving Torah' is a kind of shorthand way of saying 'taking on the yoke of the commandments' which is the same as agreeing to be bound by the covenant (legal agreement) of Sinai. What we understand from the Torah and our tradition, is that the Jewish people - the children of Israel - already had certain agreements with God, through, for instance, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. At Sinai, they were offered - collectively - both the Children of Israel present and the 'mixed multitude' of assorted random folks who accompanied them - this new and expanded agreement including multiple rules. By accepting this agreement, that GROUP of people (which was mostly, but not entirely, physical descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) became 'a Nation'. Not just a bunch of relatives with the same descent, plus friends, but an actual 'nation' or identified cultural group with shared history, shared language, and shared faith.
Of course, not every person is going to be forever perfect, especially a few generations along, and therefore of course the prophets were out there 'reminding' people of the original agreement, and chastising people for failing to follow the terms, and encouraging people to return to the agreement and straighten up and return to correct adherence to the agreement.
When someone wants to convert to Judaism, we consider that 'taking on the yoke of the commandments' - that is, this person is voluntarily accepting the agreement at Sinai, and is joining the Jewish nation/people by doing so. We give such a person a new name, too: he or she is a son/daughter of Abraham and Sarah.
Mystically speaking, the revelation at Sinai stands somehow outside time and space, so at every moment we can consider that this revelation is always occurring, at every time, and every place. So whenever we act according to the agreement, we are 'accepting' the Torah all over again, any time and any place. And every person who accepts the 'yoke of the commandments' is similarly accepting the Torah at Sinai - and so we say 'the souls of all Jews and all converts were also present at Sinai', because 'Sinai' is always happening all the time, every minute.
I think this is probably different from the Moslem view of Muhammad's communication from God, because as far as I can tell (I could be wrong!), Muhammad received a private communication, which he relayed to people, who then either believed him and followed him or not. Is that right?
Our view is that Moses did not receive the communication from God so much as he merely served as a facilitator, passing the details directly along, and helping to clarify the specifics later on as questions came up, however, the whole people as a group actually DID experience the direct revelation at Sinai, all at one time (a single time that reverberates throughout all time, and is directly experienced continually by every person who accepts it). In other words, at the actual 'revelation at Sinai', Moses was pretty much just one of the crowd.
'receiving Torah' is a kind of shorthand way of saying 'taking on the yoke of the commandments' which is the same as agreeing to be bound by the covenant (legal agreement) of Sinai.
Agreed. Obeying the commandments is fundamental to the covenant.
What we understand from the Torah and our tradition, is that the Jewish people - the children of Israel - already had certain agreements with God, through, for instance, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Agreed. They already had agreement with God but why then need to add more conditions/commandments to that agreement?
At Sinai, they were offered - collectively - both the Children of Israel present and the 'mixed multitude' of assorted random folks who accompanied them - this new and expanded agreement including multiple rules.
Then the Torah received at Sinai was not just for Children of Israel but for other people too.
By accepting this agreement, that GROUP of people (which was mostly, but not entirely, physical descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) became 'a Nation'.
Then the "Nation" was not supposed to be of only the Children of Israel but also of others who were accepting and obeying the commandments from G-d.
Not just a bunch of relatives with the same descent, plus friends, but an actual 'nation' or identified cultural group with shared history, shared language, and shared faith.
Why not add the most important aspect; obeying the commandments?
Of course, not every person is going to be forever perfect, especially a few generations along, and therefore of course the prophets were out there 'reminding' people of the original agreement, and chastising people for failing to follow the terms, and encouraging people to return to the agreement and straighten up and return to correct adherence to the agreement.
That is also the point of the Qur'an that was revealed to all believers in One True God. Jews are criticised for not keeping to the agreement. It is never mentioned in the Qur'an that the Jews should discard that agreement.
When someone wants to convert to Judaism, we consider that 'taking on the yoke of the commandments' - that is, this person is voluntarily accepting the agreement at Sinai, and is joining the Jewish nation/people by doing so. We give such a person a new name, too: he or she is a son/daughter of Abraham and Sarah.
I wonder why it is done so when the Torah wasn't given to Abraham and Sarah and, therefore, they were never under the Sinai covenant?
Mystically speaking, the revelation at Sinai stands somehow outside time and space, so at every moment we can consider that this revelation is always occurring, at every time, and every place. So whenever we act according to the agreement, we are 'accepting' the Torah all over again, any time and any place. And every person who accepts the 'yoke of the commandments' is similarly accepting the Torah at Sinai - and so we say 'the souls of all Jews and all converts were also present at Sinai', because 'Sinai' is always happening all the time, every minute.
I think this is probably different from the Moslem view of Muhammad's communication from God, because as far as I can tell (I could be wrong!), Muhammad received a private communication, which he relayed to people, who then either believed him and followed him or not. Is that right?
Not all communications to Muhammad were in private. Some were during the time when he was with other people. The Torah too was initially given to Moses only despite the mixed multitude being in the general area, during the forty days and nights. The mixed multitude were not receiving the Torah at the same exact time when Moses was receiving it (some of them were worshipping the golden calf when Moses was receiving the Torah). Moses had told the mulitude later as to what the commandments were that he had received from G-d.
Our view is that Moses did not receive the communication from God so much as he merely served as a facilitator, passing the details directly along, and helping to clarify the specifics later on as questions came up, however, the whole people as a group actually DID experience the direct revelation at Sinai, all at one time (a single time that reverberates throughout all time, and is directly experienced continually by every person who accepts it). In other words, at the actual 'revelation at Sinai', Moses was pretty much just one of the crowd.
The crowd that was worshipping the golden calf at the time? How could they have been receiving the revelation at the same time?
I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion. (Chris Matthews)
'Mystical' means 'doesn't have to make logical sense', ibn.
In no particular order -
We see converting to Judaism as joining an actual physical family of Abraham-descendents (through Isaac and Jacob). That's why converts become 'ben/bat Avraham-avinu v'Sarah-iminu' (which you should readily recognize!). The 'mixed multitude' was majority Children of Israel, and by accepting the Sinai covenant, those who weren't physical descendents were 'adopted'.
'obeying the commandments' is the ideal of course. But (do you have kids?) failing to obey them doesn't kick you out of the family. Instead, you get yelled at (by the prophets), and exhorted (by the rabbis) and encouraged to straighten up and get back in line, so to speak.
People are 'born Jewish' if their parents (mother, generally) are Jews. They also become Jews by converting to the family faith - and joining their future to the future of the People. Ideally both the 'born Jew' and the convert will be equally observant and equally knowledgable - which should be striven for, at least, although not always achieved! Converts generally study for a year or so!
What we do NOT believe is that being a Jew gives a person any 'perks' - any special status - with God. Being a Jew means taking on the responsibility of those 613 commandments, after all. It is 'hard'. It is 'extra' over other people and nations. Those other people and nations are just fine with God (in our opinion) as long as they act the way God wants EVERYBODY to act: with mercy, and justice, and with kindness to the helpless and weak. Earlier in the discussion we mentioned 'an example' and 'light on a hill' or something like that - there is no reason for EVERYBODY in the world to be an example, and you don't need for everyone to be a light - one light serves to illuminate a large area.
So we don't do much in the way of trying to reach out and convert other people (why should we? They are fine as they are), and the number of Jews in the world is relatively low - which is at least one reason why we don't like it when people of OTHER faiths try to convert us OUT. We are too few to spare many, and we aren't out there trying to convert THEM, so why can't they just butt out? We already have a perfectly satisfactory covenant with God, after all.
Now I forgot the rest - and it is after 4 and I have to go to work anyway. TTYL (talk to you later).
What about the light unto the nations verse, and many others with a similar. A kingdom of priests and a holy nation. It is your wisdom in the eyes of the nations. Etc.?
BS"D
The Jewish People, not our Torah right?
1) The Jewish people are a reflection of the Torah, so in that sense it is one and the same.
2) The Noahide Commandments have many details and particulars, which the non-Jews can and should inquire about to us in order to obtain clarity on them.
3) There are parts of the Torah that non-Jews certainly can and maybe should read, such as the early chapters in Genesis. Also, before the Jewish people went into the Land of Canaan, God told them to erect stones with the Torah written on it, which the Talmud says was in 70 languages, apparently so that the non-Jews could read them. There's debate exactly what was on these stone tablets but you see that there is at the minimum some passages which they are supposed be able to read.
4) According to Maimonides it is possible that they can volunteer to take on some of the commandments that we do; if I recall correctly, circumcision is one of them. For that they also need to come to us.
5) On the other hand, there are things that are clearly not for them, and these are discussed in the Talmud, including of course the main body of the 613 commandments. And we have a fast day for the tragedy of the Torah being translated into Greek.
I think this is probably different from the Moslem view of Muhammad's communication from God, because as far as I can tell (I could be wrong!), Muhammad received a private communication, which he relayed to people, who then either believed him and followed him or not. Is that right?
Not all communications to Muhammad were in private. Some were during the time when he was with other people.
Note: this is very different. The Torah says that all present simultaneously received a direct communication/revelation from God at Sinai, not merely that they were standing by as Moses received it.
2) The Noahide Commandments have many details and particulars, which the non-Jews can and should inquire about to us in order to obtain clarity on them.
I understand your perspective. But to me the Noachide commandments are for us to observe that other peoples are following them and not for them to be obligated to read and do. That, for them, is an option IMHO and not an obligation.
3) There are parts of the Torah that non-Jews certainly can and maybe should read, such as the early chapters in Genesis. Also, before the Jewish people went into the Land of Canaan, God told them to erect stones with the Torah written on it, which the Talmud says was in 70 languages, apparently so that the non-Jews could read them. There's debate exactly what was on these stone tablets but you see that there is at the minimum some passages which they are supposed be able to read.
I disagree. Torah was given to us. If non-Jews were obligated in any way to read Torah it would have been given to them as well. Of what benefit is it to read words that one's own ancestors did not hear at Sinai?
4) According to Maimonides it is possible that they can volunteer to take on some of the commandments that we do; if I recall correctly, circumcision is one of them. For that they also need to come to us.
Well, the fact is that they do not come to us for anything at all so I am not sure about the practical application of this in this age.
5) On the other hand, there are things that are clearly not for them, and these are discussed in the Talmud, including of course the main body of the 613 commandments. And we have a fast day for the tragedy of the Torah being translated into Greek.
This is a bit confusing IMHO as NOTHING in Torah is for them. It was not given to them. Why try to force the traditions of one people upon another? I cannot condone this but I respect that is your belief.
If the Noachide commandments exist and are binding on all human beings everywhere, how is it that the only record of their existence is in the oral teachings of one people?
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